Opinion on Naval Balance changes for 1.9.3

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Voigt

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The anniverary patch 1.9.3 introduced quite a bit of naval balance changes, mostly decreased research times for many modules and ammoniton types, but increased research time for Submarine Hulls.
Meanwhile Medium Guns got buffed a bit in general.

So after the patch is out for quite a while, what do you think about these changes, especially in MP.
Did this improve balance (enough) and did you change what naval stuff you research after those changes?
 
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Kazakk

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I want to see an overhaul on how doctrines are researched. In all nations except the USA it feels like I have to neglect one of the branches, neglect either the airforce, army or navy. In most cases you end up neglecting the navy.
Unless you're a minor you shouldn't have to do this choice. As Germany if you're doing a navy you're practically forced to go subs, as you won't have the research power to go for a more modern surface fleet. Unless, of course, if you're willing to neglect research elsewhere.
 
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mursolini

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I want to see an overhaul on how doctrines are researched. In all nations except the USA it feels like I have to neglect one of the branches, neglect either the airforce, army or navy. In most cases you end up neglecting the navy.
Unless you're a minor you shouldn't have to do this choice. As Germany if you're doing a navy you're practically forced to go subs, as you won't have the research power to go for a more modern surface fleet. Unless, of course, if you're willing to neglect research elsewhere.
Which is realistic. Germany only really had decent subs, while it's overall navy was old and not modern. Even it's subs lagged behind ASW, by mid-war.

Japan and Italy largely neglected armor and artillery.
Britain neglected army and armor.

In practice, there were only 3 big naval players in WW2, and 2 potential, that were crippled, France, by defeat, and Italy by astounding lack of fuel, among other reasons.
 
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Britain neglected army and armor.

Britain ended the war with perhaps the best tank ever designed, era by era.

The Centurion.

It is still in service today in South Africa, 75 years later. And Israel and Jordan still use Centurion hulls as APCs.
 
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Britain ended the war with perhaps the best tank ever designed, era by era.

The Centurion.

It is still in service today in South Africa, 75 years later. And Israel and Jordan still use Centurion hulls as APCs.
They had 6 of them in May 45 they did ship them to Germany but they never saw duty anymore as the war ended on the 8.

The Centurion is a modern Battletank design ingame 1945 .
 
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uberjedi

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When playing the UK in SP, I have seen that my standard patrol fleet of 20 DD, 2 CL and 1 CA has become more valid.
The CA is useful when encountering small enemy fleets.
 

mursolini

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Britain ended the war with perhaps the best tank ever designed, era by era.

The Centurion.

It is still in service today in South Africa, 75 years later. And Israel and Jordan still use Centurion hulls as APCs.
Let's start with Britain never developing a decent heavy tank like German Tiger or Russian KV, didn't develop decent medium, like T-34, M4 Pz4 or Panther.

Centurion, compared to T-54, or Patton is not very impressive. It really became a decent tank in 1948 version, by which time competition was not WW2 tanks. Before, it was just a panther equivalent, maybe a bit more reliable. So yeah, 2 years later than Panther, and much worse vehicle at same weight as Soviet IS series of same years. Then 3 years in development to get a decent version.

As for longevity, Soviet tanks will beat it easily, with T-55 being the mainstay of much more countries.

That, is what I said, Britain neglected it's tanks, compared to other big majors.
 
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General Von Trapp

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I think that the "British" doctrine should move buffs for naval bombers further down the tree or remove them entirely.

Unfortunately it's too easy to just bomb U-boats out the water with naval bombers in 1940.

One of the big things that should be as a UK player is the convoys.

The national focus tree backs this up with late bonuses for ASW, Convoy doctrine bonuses.

On top of this Germany seems to neglect it's U-Boat production making one of the most important aspects of MTG a complete waste of time.

I think the only good thing that worked out of MTG was the spotting system. It just shows when they are still tweaking things for those changes 2 years later.
 

Paul.Ketcham

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Let's start with Britain never developing a decent heavy tank like German Tiger or Russian KV, didn't develop decent medium, like T-34, M4 Pz4 or Panther.

Centurion, compared to T-54, or Patton is not very impressive. It really became a decent tank in 1948 version, by which time competition was not WW2 tanks. Before, it was just a panther equivalent, maybe a bit more reliable. So yeah, 2 years later than Panther, and much worse vehicle at same weight as Soviet IS series of same years. Then 3 years in development to get a decent version.

As for longevity, Soviet tanks will beat it easily, with T-55 being the mainstay of much more countries.

That, is what I said, Britain neglected it's tanks, compared to other big majors.


The problem with this argument is it ignores the consistent improvements on British tank design throughout the war, most of which were a bit late but fine (typically undergunned but good in all other respects, until 1944 when their tanks matured properly). The Matilda II as a heavy tank had no matching counterpart in the German army, and only really lacked due to its poor gun (too small for effective anti-infantry use and no HE due to ineffective rounds for the size, turret too small to support a bigger gun). The Crusader was actually liked by the Germans when they captured them, and again was a decent tank and competitive with the Panzer III (just late, again). The early Churchill tanks were also fine, just lacking in firepower (mixed howitzers and 6-pounder AT, to make up for the latter's poor anti-infantry use). These were later upgraded with the 75mm, similar in use to the Soviet KV-1 (if not the unusually-heavy Tiger's 88mm KwK 36). The Cromwell, introduced a bit late compared to the Panzer IV F2 (the T-34 being really early), was a perfectly-adequate and well-designed medium tank.

By 1943 the British were planning ahead for their tanks trying to mount the 17-pounder on as many as they could (a match for, or possibly better than, the KwK 42 on the Panther), both tank destroyers like the Achilles and medium tanks like the Sherman Firefly and Comet. These tended to get overshadowed by the continued use of the ordinary 75mm guns on Shermans (which were lend-lease, not locally built), Cromwells, and Churchills, but they were in production. By comparison, the Panther was introduced way too early (the 1943 introduction of the Panther at Kursk was done without many of the testing efforts normally done in production, and as a result they had an abominable rate of losses to engine and transmission problems).

I also don't agree with the premise of the T-55 beating the Centurion in longevity, since that's almost entirely a cost consideration and logistics point (why would anyone produce the Centurion Mk.I with tanks like the MkII or the Leopard 2 in production, or even the T-72). Its akin to the longevity of the MiG-29 compared to the F-14 in that they don't cost the same, fill the precise same role, and one has cost-effective replacements while the other doesn't.
 
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This got way off topic - original topic was to discuss naval balance in the current build
 
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Secret Master

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On top of this Germany seems to neglect it's U-Boat production making one of the most important aspects of MTG a complete waste of time.

A Germany that uses current in-game mechanics to actually create a solid, high tech submarine force in 1939 is deadly. The mechanics work well. The AI doesn't use them to the frightening degree that is possible.

In fact, I still think it's possible that the 1940 submarine hull plus raiding designer is a bit too powerful in vanilla HOI4 due to the ease with which it can be researched and put into production even for Germany. Stack that with research boosts for Trade Interdiction, and a couple of starting admirals that work well with submarines, and you have a recipe for wiping the British merchant marine in 6 months.

(My considered opinion is that the raiding designer and its visibility reduction stacked with the Concealment Expert trait is a potent combination in many situations even beyond submarines. The only ship that combination doesn't work well for as carriers.)
 
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Great thread Voight :) I've just played a couple of ENG games, and found the naval balance pretty good. Even carriers are reasonable (although there's room to buff them a little bit late-war - although how to do this without adjusting the overall balance between NAVs and ships is tricky).

After this game, I'm going to get back into the modding, and the things that really stood out for me were less balance, and more:
  • AI build priorities (something I can hopefully do something about)
  • The ship designer more broadly (my plans here are far more than vanilla would go for, but the way the ship designer works leads to odd and somewhat implausible ship designs, overly-fast vessels, and lacks plausibility in terms of the 'ship design decisions' that are made)
  • AI use of ships - it's much, much better than it used to be, but there's still a tendency for fleets to ignore the intel they have on enemy forces and throw away ships in small groups (because they don't have larger). At the start of the war, the AI sometimes does a good job concentrating its fleet, but once it's been attrited a bit, it throws an awful lot of ships away.
  • Subs vs Escorts feel pretty good - but there are an awful lot of modifiers floating about, and I haven't looked at all the extremes.
  • Appropriately screened fleets do a _lot_ of torpedo damage. I haven't tested it yet, but when I do, I'll be looking at dialling this back some (more broadly, given the length of naval battles, a torpedo volley every four hours suggests ships are full of the things). I'm just playing in a broadly historical way, but I would imagine it would be quite feasible to beast through enemy fleets with a good CL/DD mix.
  • I'm yet to test, but in relation to the above, I suspect capital ships aren't as effective against screens as they should be. That could be off though - there are a lot of moving parts in naval battles.

Other issues which I think would warrant looking at are:
  • The reporting on naval battles is full of bugs. I'm playing ironman so it's not a great setup for reproducible saves, but I've heard reference of the convoys not being added up in naval battle reports (it's always shown as 1 convoy sunk, even if multiple), and there are issues with the totals in the "ships sunk" info not actually matching ships sunk (again, which have been around for ages). Given that it's possible to have 5-10 naval battles going simultaneously, I'd think it was important that the feedback to players is accurate so they know what's going on.
  • It's easier to get naval XP when not at war, with ships on training, than it is at war. I don't think this is moddable, but hopefully at some point there'll be a "basic trickle of XP" for ship's that are on a mission that expends fuel. As it is, in my current game I got most of my naval XP from non-combat training, despite wiping out the German and Italian Fleets.

Which is realistic. Germany only really had decent subs, while it's overall navy was old and not modern. Even it's subs lagged behind ASW, by mid-war.

Japan and Italy largely neglected armor and artillery.
Britain neglected army and armor.

In practice, there were only 3 big naval players in WW2, and 2 potential, that were crippled, France, by defeat, and Italy by astounding lack of fuel, among other reasons.

You're a bit harsh on Germany's navy here - they had some issues with their other ships, but Germany's overall navy was actually quite modern (they'd lost the vast majority of their old navy at the end of WW1, and the bits they'd been allowed to keep were so old that they generally (and sensibly!) didn't put them harm's way (although the ship that opened WW2 is a notable exception). They had quite advanced turbines, best-in-the-world marine diesels, as-good-as-anyone-else naval armour, good guns, and actually lead the world in naval radar for a brief period pre-war (but didn't capitalise on their technical developments, and didn't get the cavity magnetron until they found one from a crashed British bomber). Their ship design wasn't (on average) quite as good as the "big three", but it was still decent, with some outstanding elements. Also, their sub designs, while they were slower to move to the Type XXI than optimal, were very influential in the development of modern submarines post-war, and their torpedo designs were also quite influential.

Britain's neglect of its armour wasn't near as much as suggested either, but Paul Ketcham's got that covered. They developed many designs, and built quite a few types - my impression is that their issue with armour was more one of doctrine than lack of effort. Britain also had the 40mm Bofors (best 'light-ish' AA of the period) in its army in 1937, well before most other armies, and also (as far as I'm aware, but I'm a long way from an expert on this) had pretty good artillery designs. Its army didn't look like the German army, but again I'd argue that was doctrine, not effort.
 
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Let's start with Britain never developing a decent heavy tank like German Tiger or Russian KV, didn't develop decent medium, like T-34, M4 Pz4 or Panther.

Centurion was objectively superior to every tank you just mentioned. :rolleyes:

Centurion, compared to T-54, or Patton is not very impressive.

Centurion outpaces T-54 in every way. As for the Patton, which Patton? There were 4.

It really became a decent tank in 1948 version, by which time competition was not WW2 tanks. Before, it was just a panther equivalent, maybe a bit more reliable. So yeah, 2 years later than Panther, and much worse vehicle at same weight as Soviet IS series of same years. Then 3 years in development to get a decent version.

In what ways do you believe the IS series was superior to Centurion?

As for longevity, Soviet tanks will beat it easily, with T-55 being the mainstay of much more countries.
T-54/55 may be the only relevant comparison.

But their widespread availability of these tanks comes down to cost.

They are extremely cheap. They were going for $30,000 -$50,000 in the late 1990s.
 

Atlantians

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The reporting on naval battles is full of bugs.

No kidding. We had an MP game that almost ended in the middle of a session because the reports were so wrong both sides of the war thought the naval game was completely out of wack and unbalanced in our mod. :eek:


ship designer

Not that this is the same thing as the actual designing of modules, but one of the things we did in our MP mod was change the PP cost of appointing naval designers (and other designers).

The base cost of appointing a designer is 150 PP still, but most equipment designers have a 33% discount to appointing a designer applied. So, the first time you appoint a designer, it's 150 PP, but if you want to swap designers, it's only 100 PP.

We are seeing more designers being swapped. It's nice not seeing Messerschmitt designing every single plane fielded by the German Reich. But it's also nice to see ships not all having the same modifiers the entire war.
 
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Axe99

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Not that this is the same thing as the actual designing of modules, but one of the things we did in our MP mod was change the PP cost of appointing naval designers (and other designers).

The base cost of appointing a designer is 150 PP still, but most equipment designers have a 33% discount to appointing a designer applied. So, the first time you appoint a designer, it's 150 PP, but if you want to swap designers, it's only 100 PP.

We are seeing more designers being swapped. It's nice not seeing Messerschmitt designing every single plane fielded by the German Reich. But it's also nice to see ships not all having the same modifiers the entire war.

This is a great idea :cool:
 
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sekelsenmat

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Which is realistic. Germany only really had decent subs, while it's overall navy was old and not modern. Even it's subs lagged behind ASW, by mid-war.

Japan and Italy largely neglected armor and artillery.
Britain neglected army and armor.

In practice, there were only 3 big naval players in WW2, and 2 potential, that were crippled, France, by defeat, and Italy by astounding lack of fuel, among other reasons.

The problem is that many doctrine techs have very weak bonuses and if you don't research a naval doctrine you can research an industry tech or a fighter, while in reality one didn't suck resources from the other. I think we need like 1 slot fixed at naval techs for majors. Minors shouldn't be able to get so many slots too.
 
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Le Jones

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To me there are two problems, CVs later in the game, and the fact that it is fiendishly difficult, starting in 1936, to get close to a realistic, historically accurate battle fleet. Both industry and research need a slight reworking IMO.

EDIT: And I appreciate that I've drifted, in part, from the question.
 
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sekelsenmat

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To the original question I think the naval balance is pretty good, but there are some issues:

Radar should increase the gun hit profile not damage, so that the hit chance stays the same later in the game. Right now the hit chance drops because ships get faster.

CV free shotting time should be moddable (separate from sub stuff)

Escort CVs should be cheaper and use less fuel.

Disallow mixed medium/Light cruiser battery.
 
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