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Sanny

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Out of all the great operations and campaigns in World War 2, why is Operation Torch not often mentioned? I've noticed that most WW2 documentaries and texts fail to mention Operation Torch and it's significance.

Is it because of Montgomery's push through North Africa against Rommel from the East is of more interest or what?
 

Klausewitz

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Because Operation Torch is mostly a non-operation.
Well, that is not entirely correct, but Operation Torch is only just a military operation and mostly a political operation where very few shots are fired and that is therefore boring; basically it does not get talked about because it is not a good story.
 

DoomBunny

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Out of all the great operations and campaigns in World War 2, why is Operation Torch not often mentioned? I've noticed that most WW2 documentaries and texts fail to mention Operation Torch and it's significance.

Is it because of Montgomery's push through North Africa against Rommel from the East is of more interest or what?

Firstly, the obvious. Documentaries and general texts which are abstract enough to ommit it tend to only focus on the major details. Hence why you get mentions of Overlord but not Anvil, Wacht am Rhein but not Nordwind, etc...

As for why Torch is considered less important, well, it was. Torch came towards the end of the North African Campaign, after the decisive battle (2nd Alamein), and didn't involve too much fighting in itself. Whilst the resulting Tunis Campaign did involve some tough fighting it bore more of a resemblance to a clean-up than an actual battle, the Axis always being on the strategic backfoot and their policy of shovelling in more resources essentially just adding to the goodie bag the Allies could pull apart. Or in other words, Torch was an annexure to the North African Campaign and one that only really became significant in Tunisia, which in itself was more of an epilogue.

From a cultural perspective, the US appreciation is dulled because US troops were not present in such numbers as later, were not under their own command, and did not perform particularly well. Meanwhile, from a British perspective, all focus was on Monty and 8th Army, as they were the chaps who had done the decisive fighting and been in the public view for a good long while (this actually caused substantial resentment amongst other British troops).
 
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cpreston5

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I really think there is a massive catalogue of engagements that have been thrown under the rug with WW2. Rather than it being a matter of certain operations being neglected, it's more a case of the whole narrative being boiled down into a tiny proportion of key battles.

For the West it's basically: France surrenders easily -> Dunkirk -> Overlord -> Market Garden -> The Bulge -> Hitler dead.

For the East: Poland -> Barbarossa (Germans winning) -> Stalingrad (Germans now losing) -> Kursk (Germans ultra-losing) -> Hitler dead.

In this process it's easy to see how a low-casualty operation against Vichy France (an actor hardly even that well known) on the far-side from the key battle in that theatre, can be excluded from the popular conception of the chain of events.

To return to the Eastern Front, how many books do you see about the Lower Dnieper Offensive? Just an example.

If it's any consolation there was a mission in an old Call of Duty that involved Torch, fighting against the French.

Edit: it was CoD 2: The Big Red One. Ah, memories.
 
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Sanny

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I really think there is a massive catalogue of engagements that have been thrown under the rug with WW2. Rather than it being a matter of certain operations being neglected, it's more a case of the whole narrative being boiled down into a tiny proportion of key battles.

For the West it's basically: France surrenders easily -> Dunkirk -> Overlord -> Market Garden -> The Bulge -> Hitler dead.

For the East: Poland -> Barbarossa (Germans winning) -> Stalingrad (Germans now losing) -> Kursk (Germans ultra-losing) -> Hitler dead.

In this process it's easy to see how a low-casualty operation against Vichy France (an actor hardly even that well known) on the far-side from the key battle in that theatre, can be excluded from the popular conception of the chain of events.

To return to the Eastern Front, how many books do you see about the Lower Dnieper Offensive? Just an example.

If it's any consolation there was a mission in an old Call of Duty that involved Torch, fighting against the French.

Edit: it was CoD 2: The Big Red One. Ah, memories.
Oh yeah! we saw Operation Torch in Call of Duty 2: Big Red One
 
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keynes2.0

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I would say the most interesting thing about Torch is that it showed a growing logistical capacity. And there were blimps.

If it's any consolation there was a mission in an old Call of Duty that involved Torch, fighting against the French.

Isn't that pretty much fiction? Like there were a few shots fired but nothing remotely approaching that fight.
 

Narwhal

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There was a pretty convincing Operation Torch in Panzer Kors US as well.

There was a little more than a few shoots fired - depending on the landing zone, but yes in the grand scheme of things it was over short.
The French in particular shot down a significant number of US planes compared to their own Air Force. We have pilots in WW2 who managed to have a career where they shot down German, American and British planes [or like Pierre le Gloan German, Italian and British].

A few similar little-known campaigns :
- The Campaign / Battle of Madagascar : English [and colonies] vs Vichy French and Japanese submarines
- The Syrian-Lebanon Campaign : English [and colonies] & French vs more French and some Germans.
- Somaliland campaign : Italians vs English... except the Italians win.
- French-Thai war : French vs Thailand in the middle of WW2...
 
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Gethsemani

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I would say the most interesting thing about Torch is that it showed a growing logistical capacity.

Operation Torch is notable for two things really:
1. It showed the rest of the world just how extreme the US logistical capacity and capability was. They literally shipped troops straight from the continental USA to their designated landing zones in Morocco. Torch thus showed the validity of large scale landing operations, something that would be tested again during Husky as the dress rehearsal for Overlord.
2. It brought to light the lack of training, command structure and organization in the US Army, most notably at Kasserine Pass. It was the US Army's baptism of fire and it did not fare well, which necessitated several quick reforms. Those reforms would later pay dividends during all subsequent operations by the US Army when it showed that not only did it learn its' lessons, it did so quickly and profoundly.

As such Torch is not very interesting simply because it was all-in-all a pushover, knocking Vichy France out of the war and signalling the end for the already battered and beaten Afrika Korps, which main claim to fame was the US formal entry into the ETO. As a proving ground for the US Army it was not a stellar success and the Brits would much rather focus on the 6th Army's triumphant victory march across Italian North Africa and so it fell into relative obscurity.
 

Henry IX

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To return to the Eastern Front, how many books do you see about the Lower Dnieper Offensive? Just an example.

How many books do you see about operation Mars? An operation that resulted in more casualties than the entire western front. Klausewitz hit the nail on the head - those campaigns that don't make good stories don't get remembered.
 

DoomBunny

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How many books do you see about operation Mars? An operation that resulted in more casualties than the entire western front. Klausewitz hit the nail on the head - those campaigns that don't make good stories don't get remembered.

No it didn't.
 

Henry IX

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Sorry my bad. Was looking at totals for the Rhyzev pocket, which of course had 3 separate Soviet offensives, of which only one was Mars.
 

Sanny

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Operation dragoon? Quite important for supply, but pretty much unknown to most people I think.
Which was initially reliant on Operation Torch's success to link up with the British and secure North Africa, from there they could take Italy which will allow for a safer invasion on the French Rivera
 

DoomBunny

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Which was initially reliant on Operation Torch's success to link up with the British and secure North Africa, from there they could take Italy which will allow for a safer invasion on the French Rivera

Not really, North Africa was settled either way. Either Rommel sticks in Libya and surrenders to Monty and 8th Army in Tripoli, or he falls back into Tunis and surrenders there.

Even in the first case a move against the Vichy territories by both sides is fairly obvious.