Operation Ten-Go - The bigger they come, the harder they fall

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Graf Zeppelin

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I mean sure if you hand wave everything and the Japanese get their surprise attack and a successful naval invasion that simultaneously takes all the Hawaiian Islands and the USN takes heavy losses and they don't immediately move forces from the Atlantic to retake the islands.

But with that much hand wavery we might as well teleport the IJN to the Potomac where Hirohito himself goes ashore to duel FDR with a katana
My statement was that if the US loses Hawaii(for whatever reason) it would be thrown back for a year to make up for that and move through the SP like it did historically. Also potentially weaking the Japanese position due to the need to supplying and defending that place. Thats it.

I dont think the Japanese could have taken Hawaii by surprise and if they did they cripple their operations towards the DEI, PI and Singapore which is terribad. It is however irrelevant to my statement.

I dont see any to positive result for the Japanese taking Hawaii even if the US gives it to them for free. Whatever is there will be trapped soon.
Still it would hamper US operations for a while.
 

hkrommel

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My statement was that if the US loses Hawaii(for whatever reason) it would be thrown back for a year to make up for that and move through the SP like it did historically. Also potentially weaking the Japanese position due to the need to supplying and defending that place. Thats it.

I dont think the Japanese could have taken Hawaii by surprise and if they did they cripple their operations towards the DEI, PI and Singapore which is terribad. It is however irrelevant to my statement.

I dont see any positive result for the Japanese taking Hawaii even if the US gives it to them for free. Whatever is there will be trapped soon.

In that case I still disagree with the yearlong delay. If the Japanese were going to take Hawaii they were going to lose the element of surprise against the navy for all the reasons @Culise mentioned, which severely diminishes the chance of damaging vessels. If it looked as if the Japanese forces were going to actually win, the navy would just evacuate and return with a force that could retake the islands. I don't see why that should take a year. Even if the USN lost some vessels, they could be quickly replaced by forces not stationed in Pearl Harbor or by the Atlantic fleets.

Edit: Unless you mean the cumulative delay would be moving the timetable back for island hopping by a year, which I think is plausible.
 

Graf Zeppelin

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Edit: Unless you mean the cumulative delay would be moving the timetable back for island hopping by a year, which I think is plausible.
Aye.
 

Graf Zeppelin

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Dinglehoff

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The lack of repair facilities and the huge base would delay things for the US, also Hawaii had huge fuel reserves which need to be replaced and shipped.

Infact there is no urgent strategic need for the US to take back Hawaii but ther woudl be alot of political pressure I guess.
The continental US had a lot of fuel and manufacturing capability. Unless we'd have to build whole new replacement fleets on the west coast, I doubt it would add an extra year. Maybe losing Hawaii would cause US leadership to turtle up, but that would be a strategy problem not a resource problem. Serious ahistorical naval losses or a very ahistorical west coast invasion would set us back years.
 

pithorr

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Not to mention that the US still can advance through the Southern Pacific like they did historically.
With the bulk of the Pacific Fleet destroyed? I doubt they would dare. Even if carriers survived, the Americans wouldn't sent them unescorted against Japanese raiders.
Also Hawaii had some really nasty CD guns and not to many good landing spots.

In 1941 most of coastal artillery on Oahu was rather outdated. And, as Maur mentioned, guns were mostly defending the approach to Pearl Harbor.
5282a7f4e68ca.jpg


Hawaii would have bought the Japanese another year or so due to the US losing significant material and fuel there. Not to mention an important base.
Maybe since suppling it would have depleted the Japanese merchant marine even faster.
One year was a lot of time for the Japanese to turn the Pacific into their own sea and properly fortify there, making the war much more costly for the USA, so and increasing aversion to the overseas war among the public, kinda like in the case of Vietnam 30 years later.
Wasn't that actually an only hope Yamamoto had unwillingly starting that war?
 

Graf Zeppelin

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Sure one year is alot of time but It will make the US only more determined and what do the Japanese with that year they couldnt do historically ?

The only way for Japan coming out of a war with the US victorious and thats a BIG maybe is to dont attack PH at all and strictly concentrate on the PI and Guam.
Here the US public might question a war for some colonies.

About the CD guns, remember that the Japanese got bogged down at Kotha Baru and repulsed at Wake and Japan would have to use old BBs to surpress them.
The Japanese been good at naval invasions at this time, maybe the best but this is a scale beyond their scope. I doubt they could have taken the island without sacrificing to much including their whole SE Asian approach. And if the Allies have Singapore and not PH they might even be in a better position to strangle Japan.

And even if they do then what ? Its a strategic deadlock for them. they have to chain the KB to it or lose in next year and get trapped whatever they have there. They cant supply it really and knowing where the Japanese carriers are is very convinient for the US.

Hell the US could even ignore it if thats political feasible, not much the Japanese can do from there bar the odd CONUS raid.
 

pithorr

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Sure one year is alot of time but It will make the US only more determined and what do the Japanese with that year they couldnt do historically ?

More determined because of what more than IRL?
On the other hand they might become tired pretty fast.

Historically the Japanese didn't control South Pacific despite tried it hardly.
The only way for Japan coming out of a war with the US victorious and thats a BIG maybe is to dont attack PH at all and strictly concentrate on the PI and Guam.
Here the US public might question a war for some colonies.
Well, surely. Even better - wouldn't have DOWed the USA at all...
About the CD guns, remember that the Japanese got bogged down at Kotha Baru and repulsed at Wake and Japan would have to use old BBs to surpress them.

At Wake for the first time they tried to land without air cover and with DDs and CLs support only...
Of course Kido Butai had BBs and CAs attached, able to suppress obsolete naval guns at Oahu :)

The Japanese been good at naval invasions at this time, maybe the best but this is a scale beyond their scope. I doubt they could have taken the island without sacrificing to much including their whole SE Asian approach. And if the Allies have Singapore and not PH they might even be in a better position to strangle Japan.
Bear in mind: without Pearl Harbor they would rather isolated on Phillipines. Who would help McArthur when the bulk of Pacific Fleet was anihilated for good and his positions constanly bombed? For how long would he have enough reserves?
And even if they do then what ? Its a strategic deadlock for them. they have to chain the KB to it or lose in next year and get trapped whatever they have there. They cant supply it really and knowing where the Japanese carriers are is very convinient for the US.
Come on. They managed to supply miltiple armies in the area. That's only two or three divisions more, they would have excellent base with all necessary infrastructure and could gather supplies for a long time.
Also, the defense would have been rather based on fleet and air forces...


Hell the US could even ignore it if thats political feasible, not much the Japanese can do from there bar the odd CONUS raid.

I don't think so, when their convoys would gave been a attacked by Japanese wolf packs soon after leaving Panama Chanel ;)

My point generally was always to think more... unconventionally about such operation :)
 
Last edited:

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@Dinglehoff - right you are: we DID build an entirely new fleet, along with a fleet supply and repair train and an amphibious warfare fleet or three. We didn't have to improvise - we had already started construction as early as 1939 and kicked it into high gear after the fall of France.



As I've previously noted, the US could have lost the entire pre-war Pacific fleet and replaced it, with increases, by 1944. The old battleships were not essential, and Essex-class carriers, Baltimore and Cleveland-class cruisers and Fletcher-class DDs were coming off the assembly line in such numbers that the US cut production in 1943. We could, if needed, have completed an easy half-dozen more fleet carriers, with planes and pilots and escorts and supplies included, along with six more fast battleships.

One year was a lot of time for the Japanese to turn the Pacific into their own sea and properly fortify there, making the war much more costly for the USA, so and increasing aversion to the overseas war among the public, kinda like in the case of Vietnam 30 years later.

I trust you are perhaps aware that the Vietnam war lasted rather longer than one year? And that there was no Pearl Harbor-style attack to focus public attention there?
It is true that the Japanese hoped a bloody battle in the islands would sour US opinion and move the US government to negotiate its way out of a war the Japanese hoped the US did not want, but... the Japanese actually had time to fortify. What they lacked was troops, transport, artillery, supplies, construction equipment, fuel and aircraft-with-pilots. Extending the US push-back from August of 1942 to July of 1943 will help some but not much. It's sort of like knowing you are going to crash a car and picking a hundred-foot-drop over a wall. It won't help, really, it'll just give you longer to think about it.

I don't think so, when their convoys would gave been a attacked by Japanese wolf packs soon after leaving Panama Chanel

I'd ask you to provide evidence that the Japanese ever operated submarines in wolfpacks, or targeted merchant shipping, but... really... some levels of blind faith are simply past being correctable by me. What you need to do is spend less time typing out cool sentences that sound good and do more research so that what you say is fact-based and credible. Start with an analysis of Japanese doctrine... This is not a personal attack - you may be a fine person. But I say, calmly and without malice, that you do not appear to know what you are talking about on this subject and your repeated assertions are therefore not convincing to me.

You believe the Japanese could invade Pearl Harbor despite lacking troops, transport, fuel, and sustainable air cover, against a motivated and dug-in defender who does have ample supplies, troops and air cover. That's your prerogative - you can have a bee in your bonnet if it pleases - but the facts, and the judgments of the military leaders on both sides at the time, in my opinion do not support you.


I would suggest that we return to the original topic of Ten Go. This diversion seems to have exhausted itself and we are repeating ourselves without swaying anyone. As a prof of mine once said, we are generating heat and not light.
 

pithorr

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@Dinglehoff - right you are: we DID build an entirely new fleet, along with a fleet supply and repair train and an amphibious warfare fleet or three. We didn't have to improvise - we had already started construction as early as 1939 and kicked it into high gear after the fall of France.



As I've previously noted, the US could have lost the entire pre-war Pacific fleet and replaced it, with increases, by 1944. The old battleships were not essential, and Essex-class carriers, Baltimore and Cleveland-class cruisers and Fletcher-class DDs were coming off the assembly line in such numbers that the US cut production in 1943. We could, if needed, have completed an easy half-dozen more fleet carriers, with planes and pilots and escorts and supplies included, along with six more fast battleships.



I trust you are perhaps aware that the Vietnam war lasted rather longer than one year? And that there was no Pearl Harbor-style attack to focus public attention there?
It is true that the Japanese hoped a bloody battle in the islands would sour US opinion and move the US government to negotiate its way out of a war the Japanese hoped the US did not want, but... the Japanese actually had time to fortify. What they lacked was troops, transport, artillery, supplies, construction equipment, fuel and aircraft-with-pilots. Extending the US push-back from August of 1942 to July of 1943 will help some but not much. It's sort of like knowing you are going to crash a car and picking a hundred-foot-drop over a wall. It won't help, really, it'll just give you longer to think about it.



I'd ask you to provide evidence that the Japanese ever operated submarines in wolfpacks, or targeted merchant shipping, but... really... some levels of blind faith are simply past being correctable by me. What you need to do is spend less time typing out cool sentences that sound good and do more research so that what you say is fact-based and credible. Start with an analysis of Japanese doctrine... This is not a personal attack - you may be a fine person. But I say, calmly and without malice, that you do not appear to know what you are talking about on this subject and your repeated assertions are therefore not convincing to me.

You believe the Japanese could invade Pearl Harbor despite lacking troops, transport, fuel, and sustainable air cover, against a motivated and dug-in defender who does have ample supplies, troops and air cover. That's your prerogative - you can have a bee in your bonnet if it pleases - but the facts, and the judgments of the military leaders on both sides at the time, in my opinion do not support you.


I would suggest that we return to the original topic of Ten Go. This diversion seems to have exhausted itself and we are repeating ourselves without swaying anyone. As a prof of mine once said, we are generating heat and not light.
OK, it's time to finish it indeed.
Only short notes here. I never stated that Japan had a chance to win long war with the USA, which could indeed build two or three brand new Pacific Fleets by mid 40s. But that was not a point here. The only premise of hope for them was a blow so strong to enable the real superiority on Pacific for long enough to make a remote overseas reconquista not profitable for the USA or/and casualities inflicted that American public opinion would have forced governmant to bargain some kind of treaty, leaving the Japanese free hand in South Asia.
And, I beg your pardon, the Americans maybe eventually became the champions of the world in winning wars, but in December 1941 they were not dug-in at all, nor experienced, nor even equipped properly, bar the fleet maybe. And the point was to destroy the fleet actually.


BTW: it was a joke about wolf packs :)
 

hkrommel

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It’s rather incredible to see the lengths some posters are willing to hand wave the historical inadequacies of Axis countries while at the same time treating the USA as completely incompetent
 
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Dinglehoff

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I have some other questions.

How many planes were attacking the ships in each wave, and how much ordinance was used in trying to destroy the ships?

Wikipedia tells roughly how many times ships got hit, but not how many bombs and torpedoes were used and avoided. It's hard to gauge how difficult it is to hit ships with torpedoes or bombs, or for them to be avoided; or if the ships maneuver's could have or did mitigate any damage, or if there were so many bombs and torpedoes that it wouldn't even matter. It also states that they stopped zigzagging and increased speed, and started evasive action, which I thought zigzagging was.

When pilots are trained for ship attacks, do they have to use charts and stopwatches to try to get hits; or do they line up the ship with a mark on the windshield(or whatever) and fire when they reach a certain predetermined distance and speed?
 

Graf Zeppelin

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These Japanese pilots been propably the best in the world at this time and got stunning hit rates like 50-60% not including duds.
The Japanese Dive bomber pilots got insane hit rates like 90% usually.

In ww2 naval pilots of all nations had the habbit to release ordonance at maximum range which made light AA a retaliation weapon normally.
 

Acheron

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It’s rather incredible to see the lengths some posters are willing to hand wave the historical inadequacies of Axis countries while at the same time treating the USA as completely incompetent
Given the US overwhelming industrial power, it requires quite some ineptness of their leaders to waste it.
 

Graf Zeppelin

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OK, it's time to finish it indeed.
Only short notes here. I never stated that Japan had a chance to win long war with the USA, which could indeed build two or three brand new Pacific Fleets by mid 40s. But that was not a point here. The only premise of hope for them was a blow so strong to enable the real superiority on Pacific for long enough to make a remote overseas reconquista not profitable for the USA or/and casualities inflicted that American public opinion would have forced governmant to bargain some kind of treaty, leaving the Japanese free hand in South Asia.
And, I beg your pardon, the Americans maybe eventually became the champions of the world in winning wars, but in December 1941 they were not dug-in at all, nor experienced, nor even equipped properly, bar the fleet maybe. And the point was to destroy the fleet actually.


BTW: it was a joke about wolf packs :)
You have a point here,
Again its the PI and not PH where the Japanese can maybe win.

Now imagine the war starts without the Japanese doing PH.
Chances are high that the US pacific fleet will sail to relief the PI.
I na full scale naval battle between the US and Japan in early 1942 close to the PI Japan has a realistic chance to win decicively ( at least much more than in 1944)and none of the sunk US ships will be recovered.

Here the public opinion might swing..might. With bombing Hawaii Japan imo threw away the only chance she had for a white peace with the US.
 

Dinglehoff

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These Japanese pilots been propably the best in the world at this time and got stunning hit rates like 50-60% not including duds.
The Japanese Dive bomber pilots got insane hit rates like 90% usually.

In ww2 naval pilots of all nations had the habbit to release ordonance at maximum range which made light AA a retaliation weapon normally.
My post was directed more towards the attacks on the Yamato and the other ships with it by US pilots.

You have a point here,
Again its the PI and not PH where the Japanese can maybe win.

Now imagine the war starts without the Japanese doing PH.
Chances are high that the US pacific fleet will sail to relief the PI.
I na full scale naval battle between the US and Japan in early 1942 close to the PI Japan has a realistic chance to win decicively ( at least much more than in 1944)and none of the sunk US ships will be recovered.

Here the public opinion might swing..might. With bombing Hawaii Japan imo threw away the only chance she had for a white peace with the US.
I doubt public opinion would be swung to peace by anything less than a catastrophic years long losing streak, even without PH. US at the time was full of patriotic and nationalistic people, who'd be fighting against an enemy they've been conditioned for war with, under a US government that will suppress and ignore dissent with war powers and a ruling elite consensus. I can't think of a US war before Korea that wasn't supposed to be some righteous and patriotic crusade, and it would take a lot to get the whole system to turn on it.
 

Graf Zeppelin

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Yes its unlikely but the slightest sliver of hope for the Japanese to come out ahead I can think off.
 

Acheron

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You have a point here,
Again its the PI and not PH where the Japanese can maybe win.

Now imagine the war starts without the Japanese doing PH.
Chances are high that the US pacific fleet will sail to relief the PI.
I na full scale naval battle between the US and Japan in early 1942 close to the PI Japan has a realistic chance to win decicively ( at least much more than in 1944)and none of the sunk US ships will be recovered.

Here the public opinion might swing..might. With bombing Hawaii Japan imo threw away the only chance she had for a white peace with the US.
Agreed. Again, to my knowledge. the defeat at Pearl Harbor was blamed by the public on the Japanese underhand sneak attack with no warning. Decisively loosing in a "honest" open battle might instead direct public fury at their own government. Might of course, but as you said:
Yes its unlikely but the slightest sliver of hope for the Japanese to come out ahead I can think off.
 

pithorr

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Oh, I know I should stop but after short net research I found something about Minoru Genda's, actual author of the plan of attack on Pearl Harbor, approach on seizing Hawaii:
Angelo N. Caravaggio: “Winning ” the Pacific War. Masterful Strategy of Commander Minoru Genda.
...The conventional narrative on the Pacific War has it that Japan never intended
to invade Hawaii. This view asserts that the Japanese leadership felt Hawaii was
too difficult to capture and retain and that it was in any case outside the desired
limits of the Greater East Asia Co-Prosperity Sphere.49 However, we now know
that Hawaii was in fact explicitly included within the sphere in both public and
classified wartime documents and was the focus of Genda’s thinking from the
beginning.50
Genda understood that Pearl Harbor was the headquarters of the Pacific
Fleet, a crucial logistics and repair facility, a vital intelligence center, and an ideal
springboard for any counteroffensive against Japan. Hawaii was also the anchor
for air and maritime communications between the United States and the southwestern
Pacific. From the moment Genda began preparing his draft, he favored
a full-scale landing of Japanese troops on Oahu. “We should follow up this attack
on Hawaii with a landing,” he said. “If Hawaii is occupied, America will lose her
largest and best advance base and, furthermore, our command of future operations
will be very good.” American fighting forces on Hawaii would have to retire
to the West Coast, and Japan would dominate the Central Pacific.51 Genda’s conceptualized
plan, that is, took Yamamoto’s intent one step farther—to take Pearl
Harbor away from the Americans and thereby eliminate their ability to project
power from the Central Pacific. Once in Japanese hands, the Hawaiian Islands
could be used militarily to threaten the continental United States and, politically,
as a bargaining chip in negotiations to end the war.52 The key to Genda’s vision
was not what Japan would gain by acquiring the islands but what the United
States would lose.
It is in this plan that the true nature of Genda’s operational-level thinking is
manifest. Genda believed that without seizing and holding Oahu, Japan could
not hope to win the war. Oahu had to be taken at the outset of the conflict, while
surprise and initiative still worked in Japan’s favor. Once it had been occupied,
conditions would be favorable for subsequent operations in the south, and Japan
would have time to figure out how to maintain and resupply the islands. Genda
believed that Hawaii, not the Philippines, should have been Japan’s major military
objective at the outset. Where Yamamoto saw a delaying action, Genda saw
a knockout punch—the annihilation of the enemy’s operational center of gravity
with one decisive, joint operation.53
Assuming that the initial air strikes were successful and that the Japanese had
air superiority and given intelligence estimates of approximately two American
divisions on Oahu, Genda believed ten to fifteen thousand well equipped troops
would suffice for its capture.54 Genda realized the risks involved in moving a large
task force across the North Pacific to attack Oahu, but he felt that even if (as the
Japanese expected) a portion of the force was destroyed, the loss of shipping and
troops would not materially impact operations in the south.55
Predictably, so innovative a plan, coming originally from a mere commander
(though possibly over the signature of a rear admiral), did not survive contact
with the senior planners of the Combined Fleet staff, particularly at a time when
the concept of a carrier air attack, backed by Yamamoto himself, was itself experiencing
stiff opposition. But during naval war games to test the planned Phase
One operations in September 1941, the idea of invading Oahu resurfaced. In
preparation for the event, Commander Watanabe conducted a detailed study of a
possible invasion of Oahu. He estimated that a successful invasion would require
at least two Japanese divisions, about thirty thousand men. Transporting them,
with their equipment and supplies, would require eighty transports and escort
vessels, including thirty-two destroyers, eight cruisers, four battleships, two aircraft
carriers, six to eight submarines for reconnaissance, and ten tankers. These
would be in addition to the carrier strike force.56
Watanabe laid out two landing sites: one on the northwest coast on both sides
of Haleiwa, the other in the area of Kaneohe Bay. The southern coast was best
suited to an invasion, but it was also the most heavily defended area of Oahu. The
west coast was eliminated, because the U.S. Navy had held invasion maneuvers
off the west coast a year before, and the Americans were likely well prepared to
defend that part of the island.57
The two landings would happen simultaneously at midnight of 7/8 December.
Half a division would land at Haleiwa, to take Schofield Barracks. The objectives
of this attack were not only to take the barracks but to draw American forces
northward, by giving the impression that it was the main effort. The actual main
attack, however, was planned for the east coast, at Kaneohe Bay, with one and a
half divisions. Two-thirds of this force would occupy that, the remainder the region
below Laie. The objective was to cross the Koolau Range, using horses, and
then descend on Pearl Harbor, cutting off any retreat to the mountains of Oahu.
The Japanese knew from intelligence that the Koolau mountains were not fortified
and in fact were open to the public. Given complete air superiority, Watanabe
estimated, it would take from two to four weeks to capture the island.58
Watanabe tried to discuss the study with Captain Kuroshima but the latter
was not interested, considering an invasion infeasible and to be going against the
concept of operations for Phase One. After the war, Kuroshima would declare
that the “biggest mistake” of his life was this refusal to consider invasion of Oahu
after the carrier attack.59 Genda’s and Watanabe’s superiors, for their part, always
considered the idea in the context of the invasions of the Philippines and Malaya,
also to be accomplished at the outset. Considered accordingly, an invasion of
Oahu was easily dismissible from a resource perspective. Genda himself, in contrast,
viewed the invasion as either instead of or before the Philippine operation,
with the intent of denying American ground, sea, and air forces the use of the
Hawaiian Islands as an advance base.
Regardless, any invasion of Oahu would have needed the support of the army,
which was firmly focused on China and willing to provide only the smallest
number of divisions necessary to acquire the territories identified in Phase One.
In fact, the IJA planned to commit only ten of its fifty-one divisions and four of
its fifty-nine brigades to the Southern Army for these operations.60 Notably, however,
and reflecting the important role envisioned for airpower, the IJA allotted
seventy of its 151 air squadrons to support the Southern Operation.
The mistrust that existed between the two services is evident from the fact that
the Combined Fleet never approached the IJA to discuss a Hawaiian invasion option.
The Combined Fleet was so concerned with the secrecy of the Pearl Harbor
carrier attack that it did not want to divulge the plan to the army. The Combined
Fleet’s fear was based on the IJA’s strong influence over governmental decision
making—if the IJA objected to the attack, it could easily force its cancelation.
Watanabe lamented that “once they [IJA] rejected something, nothing could be
carried out.”61
For all these reasons, and despite repeated attempts by Genda to drive home
the importance of taking the islands, the idea of invading Oahu as part of the
initial attack was dead. Knowing that there was no stomach for invading Oahu as
he had wanted, Genda moved to the next best course of action available, which
was to design a plan that would deny Pearl Harbor to the Americans, through the
destruction of the base and its facilities. “In my opinion, Japan had to neutralize
American bases in the Pacific if she was to carry on the war successfully.”62
Genda’s modified plan involved repeated attacks against the infrastructure of
Pearl Harbor and the Pacific Fleet at its moorings, and a possible fleet engagement
against any American warships found outside the harbor. A significant problem
for Genda was that Vice Admiral Nagumo, who commanded the 1st Air Fleet,
had little faith in or understanding of naval airpower or the potential of the air
arm at his disposal.63...

That guy was just proposing my plan... :)