Operation Sealion before or after Barbarossa

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Mr_B0narpte

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I do after Barbarossa is in full swing, and looking good, but little IC for that before. I invade France while significantly behind in upgrades.
What are you spending your IC on pre-war? Even with 6 carriers Germany has a lot to spare.
 

Pang Bingxun

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Why's that? Does Romania not join the Axis anymore?

There has been no change to make it less likely for Romania to join axis. To the contrary, Romania joins AI Germany more early. A human Germany must simply declare war on Yugoslavia and all the 3+1 adjacent axis nation become very eager to join axis if they have not done so already. Thus this declaration of war should happen at Danzig, but Italy joing axis should probably happen before it to stabilize the border between FRA and ITA.
 

MJF

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There has been no change to make it less likely for Romania to join axis. To the contrary, Romania joins AI Germany more early. A human Germany must simply declare war on Yugoslavia and all the 3+1 adjacent axis nation become very eager to join axis if they have not done so already. Thus this declaration of war should happen at Danzig, but Italy joing axis should probably happen before it to stabilize the border between FRA and ITA.
I DOWd Yugo right after finishing off Poland with 1.11 -- no luck with Romania. They go democratic & never join. Bulgaria needs to be influenced and joins mid '40, or later. I split CZ with HUN to get that alliance. Last time I didn't, they were slow to join as well.
 

MJF

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What are you spending your IC on pre-war? Even with 6 carriers Germany has a lot to spare.
7 CV IVs (6 would probably do, but I used to do 4, + 6-9 SSH's - now I build no subs!), 1-2 more CA IVs, 6 BC IVs, some CL IVs and DD IVs, 12 INTs, 4 CASs, 6 + MOTs with reg art, 4 SPart for the 3 Lt ARM & CAV, 12-15 + transport ships and 3 Marine div's for sealion. Art brigades added to as much infantry/mar/mt units as I can get, Level 4 forts along Maginot, 3-4 radar stations, Some factories, and infra to 200 in high IC or resource areas, per Bosman's approach, which has produced the best combination of early IC and ready Navy for me to date:

https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...t-trying-harder.1109629/page-14#post-24612543
 
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Pang Bingxun

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I DOWd Yugo right after finishing off Poland with 1.11 -- no luck with Romania. They go democratic & never join.

That should change by waiting for them to become a dictorship. Loosing territory to hungary, bulgaria and soviet union would have that effect. That happens per default.

But with some luck they are a dictorship before that. I donnot recall any change that would make it less likely for Romania to join axis. But there is some luck regarding what kind of government Romania will have at which time.

I just confirmed that Romania will join axis as PA but not as social liberal, at least not via invite before Danzig. Social conservative might be in between.

Edit: The best move is to influence Romania early enough. Then it joins eagerly in 1938 or whenever it is PA.
 
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Mr_B0narpte

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7 CV IVs (6 would probably do, but I used to do 4, + 6-9 SSH's - now I build no subs!), 1-2 more CA IVs, 6 BC IVs, some CL IVs and DD IVs, 12 INTs, 4 CASs, 6 + MOTs with reg art, 4 SPart for the 3 Lt ARM & CAV, 12-15 + transport ships and 3 Marine div's for sealion. Art brigades added to as much infantry/mar/mt units as I can get, Level 4 forts along Maginot, 3-4 radar stations, Some factories, and infra to 200 in high IC or resource areas, per Bosman's approach, which has produced the best combination of early IC and ready Navy for me to date:

https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...t-trying-harder.1109629/page-14#post-24612543
Ok cool. Although the land forts aren't needed as the Allied AI rarely attacks, and really it's in Germany's interest for it to attack as you could bleed it dry. I'd definitely want more land units mind. Did you achieve Vichy with those forces?
 

MJF

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Ok cool. Although the land forts aren't needed as the Allied AI rarely attacks, and really it's in Germany's interest for it to attack as you could bleed it dry. I'd definitely want more land units mind. Did you achieve Vichy with those forces?
Yes. think I added 2 more MOTs with the 1 CAV/SPart unit as a 4th semi-blitzkrieg force. Should be in the above thread.
 

Commander666

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Yes. think I added 2 more MOTs with the 1 CAV/SPart unit as a 4th semi-blitzkrieg force.

Well, my hat's off to you for managing to pull off such an early Fall Gelb. But I find the prospect of having only 4 mobile divisions - and especially obsolete infantry - rather disturbing.

Please compare to what I had which delayed doing Fall Gelb by about 2 months later than you just so I could have all my units upgraded. I wasted a month upgrading the two HQ-1 to realize HQ-2 have the same speed. I think I could have launched same date as you had I skipped upgrading the HQs (as that had no speed benefit) and omitted upgrading the few INF and all the GAR not involved in the attack. But basically - once snow arrived - I decided to get everything upgraded first (including the ships).

In the below, those are ARM-3, and I guess we can count the PAR as "mobiles" for a total of 33 mobile divisions.
FallGelb-start.png



It would be most interesting to compare what your losses were for the attack so we might start tallying the hidden costs of a program so heavily committed to mostly (or only?) factory/infra construction in the early years. My losses taken from file save on day when Vichy fired are below. Fall Gelb started Dec 15th AM.

Losses Vichy.png



IIRC, the dissent is on account of the unfortunate PAR who had to go VoV to avoid getting eliminated because there was no retreat possible. So my losses are already very high for trying to do so fast a blitzkrieg. Definitely, having slowed down and taken a couple days extra to maybe have Vichy fire same time anyway would have saved me over 10,000 in needless lost MP on account of the very bad attack with that PAR who was almost eliminated strength-wise. That should not happen to PAR - ever, and I am totally at fault that the blunder was committed.

There is no dispute that your attack - launched before winter arrived - had great savings in better speed and not afflicted by the -30 modifier for "frozen" terrain that I generally suffered. But is there not a way to re-work it all so the units used are upgraded and perhaps a few more mobiles?
 
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