Operation Sealion before or after Barbarossa

[Pioniere]

It looks like all of England and southern Scotland are well protected by British troops no real opening there. If it was not for the Spanish new navy with heavy cruisers I would not managed to invade Ireland. 3 times my Spanish navy managed to win on the sea against a moderate Royal navy fleet.
It seems that I should withdraw most of my German troops in Ireland and build an Irish fort there instead.
I should prepare a war with the soviets instead.

Maybe the Ireland-AI should built level two coastal forts when at war?

 

[Mr_B0narpte]

Unfortunately we can't see what the modern Spanish ships are. Barbarossa certainly makes sense, in 1940 the USSR probably only has a handful more divisions then when it did in 1936 if you're using the base game so should be a piece of cake

Most AIs should prepare for war by 39/40, USA excluded but still aiming for a decent force by 41/42. USSR should aim to peak by 1941 but certainly gearing for it in 39/40. Ireland, alongside all minors, should build land/coastal forts as necessary to increase the chances of surviving if they've run out of manpower (which they should by late-1939). China & Japan are obvious exceptions where they aim to militarise far earlier.

 

[MJF]

Since convoy raiding is pretty much pointless vs UK early on in this game, I break it off fairly early - before Vichy is near to triggering. This often encourages the UK AI to stack troops in Plymouth, preparing for one of their feeble amphib attempts. This leaves Dover poorly protected. I have a 3-stack of Sturm Marines by then, and hit with them, and 3 more 3-stacks of infantry, with a FM in there somewhere. As soon as you get someone on a UK province, "rebase" all transports (I have 15-18 by then) onto it, and "rebase" back to get your armor/mot's on to it.

As Germany, I've considered Sealion the pivotal event in the war. Take the British Isles, and the UK becomes a minor player for a while, allowing you to focus on E. Europe, the USSR, and then the USA. This is even more true if the Italians have done well in N. Africa. As I'm sure you know, Taking Gibraltar & Egypt kicks the UK fleet out of the Med, or denies supply to what's stuck there.

I switch to Base Strike and build 4+ CV IV's (and 4+ BC IV's) by late '39, but Commander has presented a successful S. I./SS IV strategy here:
https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/seawolf-class-101.1082795/

I believe you need either a dominant CV fleet, or SS fleet, to drive off the UK fleets and make Sealion work. Of course, CAS/TAC's help too, but only CV IV's or 12 SSH I's or 27+ SS IV's seem to me to be effective vs UK & French CV's.

 

[Pioniere]

There is no way I can break the defense of the UK, but the whole of Ireland and Gibraltar are under axis control. I should help Italy instead and prepare for Barbarossa.
I often use Ireland as a decoy vs UK-ai.

 

[PB-DK]

i usually crush france in 39, do barbarossa in 40 and then turn back on the brits in 41/42, this prevents the soviets from building up a massive force later (if it is a compentent ai, if not, then you have no issue with waiting a year or two at most) as your forces can attack into india and the middle east from the caucasus while your airforce and navy wreck the british fleet

 

[Pang Bingxun]

My guess would be that an invasion of the UK should wait till after Barbarossa. The term Sealion might not fit too well by then. But whatever the term for the invasion itself, attacking the UK outside its mainlands seems sensible as letting the troops for Barbarossa proceed their advance via Baku to India and Suez should gradually thin out what the UK deploys at home. A logicsl alternative to thst is to attack very early still in 1939 when the defences are still thin anyway.

 

[MJF]

My guess would be that an invasion of the UK should wait till after Barbarossa. The term Sealion might not fit too well by then. But whatever the term for the invasion itself, attacking the UK outside its mainlands seems sensible as letting the troops for Barbarossa proceed their advance via Baku to India and Suez should gradually thin out what the UK deploys at home. A logical alternative to that is to attack very early still in 1939 when the defences are still thin anyway.

I vote early -- but if you can't pull it off early, then later as above, I suppose. I've never done it that way (I don't think), as I want the UK out of my immediate way as soon as possible, even if it costs me.

This is from a Sealane Int -- 18 SSH game, with 3 PAR divisions (rare for me - I usually make no PAR's and rely on 3 Marine divisions).

 

[Pioniere]

I vote early -- but if you can't pull it off early, then later as above, I suppose. I've never done it that way (I don't think), as I want the UK out of my immediate way as soon as possible, even if it costs me.
This is from a Sealane Int -- 18 SSH game, with 3 PAR divisions (rare for me - I usually make no PAR's and rely on 3 Marine divisions).

Ok so we have Sealane doctrine and some new cruisers at level 4 to hold of the Royal navy? You use 2 to 3 marines and sometime paratroppers.

I have 2 paratroppers, but may navy was not suffuent for the job in 1940.
Right now I got win over the soviets its 1942 and Africa will be overun becuse of USA strong land forces. I have taken Kiev and Leningrad. Southern flank for the soviets are somewhat weak. So I will win over the Soviet union. The Axis allied nations to Germany are many; Ireland,Argentina,Portugal,N-spain,Vichy,Sweden,Swizerland,Croatia,Italy,Romania,Hungary,Bulgaria and Finland.

 

[MJF]

Ok so we have Sealane doctrine and some new cruisers at level 4 to hold of the Royal navy? You use 2 to 3 marines and sometime paratroppers.

Either Marines OR Paratroopers. I don't have the resources to have both by late '39-early '40. I have found CA IV's insufficient against the UK's BB's and CV II/III's.

EDIT: In addition to 4-6 BC IV's, Only 3 + CV IV's, or 12+ heavy subs or 24+ SS IV's can deal (barely enough!) with their Navy to allow an early Sealion -- unless you get extremely lucky, or use your Paratroopers as an exploit. I used to use 4 CV IVs + 2 CA IVs, with 2 x 4 screens, and 4 BC IVs + 2 CA IVs with 3 x 3 screens, and 6-9 SSHs, with Baltic adding 1 CA IV, and 2 x 2 screens (fleet sized 7, under Salwachter). Now however it's either Base Strike & 6-7 CV IVs + 6 BC IVs and ASW fleets with 1 CL III + 3+ DD/asw and no built subs; or 12 + SSHs with the 6 BC IV fleet & Sealane Int. doctrine; I concluded there's little reason to build subs with Base Strike, and no reason to build CV/CVLs with Sealane. What I haven't figured out yet is if my SHs are boosted by Donitz. The pop-up says BCs and SSs are boosted -- does that include the heavy subs?

I have 2 paratroppers, but may navy was not suffuent for the job in 1940.
Right now I got win over the soviets its 1942 and Africa will be overun becuse of USA strong land forces. I have taken Kiev and Leningrad. Southern flank for the soviets are somewhat weak. So I will win over the Soviet union. The Axis allied nations to Germany are many; Ireland,Argentina,Portugal,N-spain,Vichy,Sweden,Swizerland,Croatia,Italy,Romania,Hungary,Bulgaria and Finland.

Of course. By your spreading the UK forces out you will probably succeed with the invasion.

I doubt one can take the UK early however without a major early Naval commitment -- either 4+ CV IV's, or 12-18 SSH's or 27+ SS IV's - along with 4-6 BC IV's and related, ideally by November 1939. All this means a weak Wehrmacht, and for that matter a weaker Luftwaffe - I'm lucky if I have 12 INT's, the 8 TAC's (unbrigaded early) and if real lucky, 4 CAS's (brigaded) with 4 more on the way. This is a big sacrifice, especially if playing along an historical attack line, so I must attack early. Barbarossa launches August '40 at the latest. Hopefully I conquer Canada by mid '41. Then I hit the USA, which is always much more powerful that historically at that time. By then I have either 9+ CV IV's, 6 BC IV, and 3 asw fleets, or a massive sub fleet instead of carriers. Add 2 full squadrons of NAV II's and you defeat the USA.

If Germany doesn't trigger the Bitter Peace, its Eastern border is never "Safe," and therefore it can not safely launch major attacks on the Western Powers much beyond the European continent. If the USA is not defeated, Germany will get nuked in 1945-46. I don't see how I can defeat the Yanks without taking Great Britain first. I certainly want to close off the Med Sea to the Allies, and I want to take Persia, so I can "Sucker-Punch" the Reds when ready, but Germany needs Northern Atlantic and English Channel superiority, and, as I'm sure you know, that means the Brits must get kicked off their Island. They can hang out in Kenya & Southern Africa, they can eat curry in India, they can annoy the Japanese in the South Pacific -- any of these, as long as they're out of my way -- until I'm ready to finish them off!

 

[Pang Bingxun]

I doubt one can take the UK early however without a major early Naval commitment[....]All this means a weak Wehrmacht, and for that matter a weaker Luftwaffe

A slightly different approach would be to skip the navy except the initial 3 CA1938 and build a well suited airforce. By early 1940 you would then want to have 16 CAS1940-Esc1940 with naval attack 7 each and 16+ MRF1940 with 2 naval attack each. A strong airforce can work as a subtitute. Pending details it may work quite well.

One critical concern is research. You need to have 1938 Strafing doctrine for efficient naval interdiction(100% instead of 50%). That is easy enough. 1941 Infrastructure Destruction Doctrine would be needed for efficient bombardement of fleets in port(again 100% instead of 50%).

If researching MRF1940 with Focke-Wulf starts 360 days before Danzig you will have the tech about 6 days before Danzig. Having this tech is essential because MRF are a bit weak compared to Int, so having an edge in tech makes a significant difference.

If researching Esc1940 with Messerschmitt starts 360 days before Danzig you will have the tech about 19 days after Danzig. If researching CAS1940 with Heinkel starts 360 days before Danzig you will have the tech about 20 days after Danzig. If researching 1941 Infrastructure Destruction Doctrine with Hugo Sperrle starts at Danzig you will have the tech at about 1940/05/12, pending research on 1940 computers it can become earlier than that.

I don't see how I can defeat the Yanks without taking Great Britain first.

I can see how leaving Great Britain for the Yank to use as a big airfield might make sense. This way you can wear down the US airforce on your home turf and thus have much lesser airforce to fight once you reach the american continent. But even if this strategy of attrition works out it seems reasonable to take Great Britain before landing on the east coast of the US or Canada. Invading north america just when Sealion concludes makes sense. In way it would be one continuous invasion.

One could of course also try to invade the USA from the west after taking Vladivostok. That may be fun, but mainly because it does not make sense. Invading north america from the east is the natural choice.

 

[MJF]

A slightly different approach would be to skip the navy except the initial 3 CA1938 and build a well suited airforce. By early 1940 you would then want to have 16 CAS1940-Esc1940 with naval attack 7 each and 16+ MRF1940 with 2 naval attack each. A strong airforce can work as a subtitute. Pending details it may work quite well.

One critical concern is research. You need to have 1938 Strafing doctrine for efficient naval interdiction(100% instead of 50%). That is easy enough. 1941 Infrastructure Destruction Doctrine would be needed for efficient bombardement of fleets in port(again 100% instead of 50%).

If researching MRF1940 with Focke-Wulf starts 360 days before Danzig you will have the tech about 6 days before Danzig. Having this tech is essential because MRF are a bit weak compared to Int, so having an edge in tech makes a significant difference.

If researching Esc1940 with Messerschmitt starts 360 days before Danzig you will have the tech about 19 days after Danzig. If researching CAS1940 with Heinkel starts 360 days before Danzig you will have the tech about 20 days after Danzig. If researching 1941 Infrastructure Destruction Doctrine with Hugo Sperrle starts at Danzig you will have the tech at about 1940/05/12, pending research on 1940 computers it can become earlier than that.

You're not recalling here that my IC leaves me terribly behind in upgrading in late 1939. I must conquer Poland, France and the British Isles with little or no upgrading, beyond the airforce, Navy and mobile forces, and airforce upgrades don't get all the INT's to level III, and barely get the TACs there.

Still, slowing down Sealion, with this strategy may work, but what's your plan to hit the USA with such a puny Navy?

I can see how leaving Great Britain for the Yank to use as a big airfield might make sense. This way you can wear down the US airforce on your home turf and thus have much lesser airforce to fight once you reach the american continent..

Interesting.

 

[Pang Bingxun]

Still, slowing down Sealion, with this strategy may work, but what's your plan to hit the USA with such a puny Navy?

The implicit idea is to build up a force of Carriers for that, but not have them till needed. The early build up of a strong navy reduces the icd available for army and airforce, so that should be avoided unless Sealion is meant to occur in 1939.

Practically speaking i would estimate that both the carriers and the CAS can be ready in may 1940. To have say 9 Carriers by 1940/04/30 one would need to start 9 lines for 47.9 ic 555+72 days before that at 1938/08/03 and 9 CAG1938 for 68.4 ic 122+36 days before 1940/04/30 at 1939/11/22. So that is only 387x47.9=18537.3 icd investment into the navy before Danzig. This leaves much more icd for airforce and army.

The really crucial question is the timetable. If gaining naval superiority starts in may 1940, than Sealion would maybe start in june 1940 which is an excellent choice in terms of weather and short nights. Nights do give severe penalties. But assuming that Sealion is concluded fast, than the next natural step would be to invade the USA. But when is the attack on soviet union meant to occur and how well defended will Great Britain be? Attacking he soviet union first may be the better choice. But then there is the question of luring the land forces of the UK out of Great Britain. For this it needs to loose many forces and thus choose to replace them with troops from home. Shipping them to Africa or India takes time and requires enough transports. If the later are destroyed this makes Sea Lion harder, because the UK loses the ability thin out the forces at home.

All in all substituting the navy with a strong airforce can work but the attempt of fitting it into a sensible grand strategy encounters obstacles and thereby some paradoxes. One sensible choice would be to let Sealion follow directly to Vichy in late september or early october 1939. But then 1941 Infrastructure Destruction Doctrine will not be available. So the royal navy needs to be destroyed outside of port.

 

[Pioniere]

April 1946 uk has most of its troops elswhere.

 

[MJF]

...One sensible choice would be to let Sealion follow directly to Vichy in late september or early october 1939. But then 1941 Infrastructure Destruction Doctrine will not be available. So the royal navy needs to be destroyed outside of port.

That's what I aim for:

I never hit their Navy in port here. I don't want to have anything to do with them during sealion, but they have a nasty habit of showing up.

Good point about nighttime. 3 Marine divisions (here I only had 2), hitting from either 2 or (if doable) 3 sea zones, with a 3-marine stack, and 3 more stacks of infantry (all with artillery) usually works, but if the UK Navy shows up in the same sea zone -- that's a problem. If they get to reinforce the province beyond 3-4 divisions, forget it!

 

[MJF]

April 1946 uk has most of its troops elswhere.

Impressive. What is the status of the USA at this time?

 

[Pioniere]

Impressive. What is the status of the USA at this time?

older picture before I got the allies out of north africa and south africa.

All of soviet is gone for good.
Im on my way to pacify them if I can make them surrender or something that would be good.

 

[MJF]

older picture before I got the allies out of north africa and south africa.

All of soviet is gone for good.
Im on my way to pacify them if I can make them surrender or something that would be good.

I'm surprised you haven't gotten nuked yet.

 

[Pioniere]

Me to, but for what ever the reason I got the bomb first.

Im willing to let the parts of the usa to be free if they surrender, but it dosnt look that way. now.

However, for the nuke was more of a show of to get dissidents inside the enemy. I did not use it on populated provinces. Only some ICs and infrastructure where destroyed. The Army and the navy was the decisive factor.

Californication plan

 

[Pang Bingxun]

If the goal is to max out enemy dissent, than destroying factories and population is the way to go.

 

[Mr_B0narpte]

Nixon becomes head of a Nazi-California government?!