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Kanaric

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One thing that annoyed me in Victoria was the fact that this was a Belgium war of independence and seemingly had a lot of events scripted around it. However there is no victory event for the Netherlands. If I got 100% warscore I can simple annex a bunch of their territory and in the next war annex the entire nation. IMO they should be changed to be more or less if the Netherlands win they annex Belgium as this is how most wars of this nature work in paradox games.

Is this how this will be handled in Victoria 2?
 

Vae_Victis

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I'm guessing they'll probably use the revolter/civil war tag that lets the "parent" country annex the "revolter" in one go without accuring any Badboy points.

That's a good idea but what if the great powers decide to recognise Belgium? Wouldn't that mean that the Netherlands was annexing a European neighbour rather than quelling a revolt and so they would gain the BB?
 

Te. Kenzo

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Victoria 2 is not Hard Scripted like the first title, so now the true problem is if Belgium and Netherlands start alredy at war and this should be create strange scenario from the start of the game.

A good idea should be start with Belgium alredy indipendent with the all normal region alredy conquered, and at peace with netherlands.
 

unmerged(63310)

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Interesting question actually- it wouldn't make sense for revolters tag which would treat it like a civil war although technically it was Belgium revolting that was simply reflecting trying to establish de jure what had already been de facto.

Event scripted end to war is poor solution but starting at peace seems a bit wrong as well. Unless it starts with Netherlands has CB on Belgium and some decisions for both reflecting war or no war in the first year with the result of war being event chain to add or subtract some national cultures depending on result.
 

Skyman

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Might the war goals system deal with this issue? A revolting country might simply want to Recognize Independence, while the other might have a Reconquest goal, which would allow for annexation.
 

Rhion

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I already wrote quite an essay on this in another thread, didn't feel like typing it out again. Thank Odin for copy-paste.

The problem with is that by the beginning of Vic, 1836, there are no open hostilities between Belgium and the Netherlands. In Vic1, the situation in 1836 is represented rather oddly, with Belgium and the Netherlands being at war. A war which then suddenly ends with the treaty of London. Things were a bit more complicated though.

In 1836, the two countries are indeed officially at war, but had signed an indefinite armistice after the Dutch campaign of 1831. In 1831, the Dutch had crushed the Belgian army rather easily, but where pushed back due to a French intervention. The French didn't intervene out of the goodness of their heart though. They actually wanted to annex Belgium. To avoid this and a war with France, the Dutch, receiving no help from its allies, agreed to an armistice with Belgium. Then in 1839, with the treaty of London, the Dutch finally recognised Belgian independence. The French eventually shelved their dreams of annexation due to pressure from the British, who saw Belgium as an ideal bufferstate between the Great Powers of continental Europe.

So I think we can all agree representing the situation off 1836 Belgium in a game is no easy task. Now, taking into account the features already announced for Vic2, this is a rough idea of how it could be illustrated ingame.

- Though officially at war. I'd start the campaign off with Belgium and the Netherlands at peace, representing the armistice. I agree though, that the Netherlands, not recognizing Belgian independence yet, should have the option to continue the war. Thus I'd give the Netherlands a casus belli or "war goal" to annex Belgium and cores on its territory.

- War with Belgium should hold a serious risk for the Netherlands to draw France into the war though. Thus, France starts off guaranteeing the indepence of Belgium in 1836.

- With the treaty of London the Netherlands recognised Belgium's independence, but Vic2 should (and probably will) leave the Dutch the choice not to do so. So if the Dutch agree to the treaty, things play out historically. The Netherlands lose their "annexation war goal" and cores on Belgium and borders get set in a historic manner. If they don't though, the Netherlands declare war on Belgium.

-Other nations that were part of the treaty of London get the choice to sign too. When they sign, they recognise Belgium and guarantee its independence. However, if they refuse and the Netherlands declare war, they get the option to join the Netherlands in the war, with Belgium and those guaranteeing its independence on the other side.

I think this would best represent the situation. History was almost a best-case-scenario for Belgium (except losing a few historical territorial claims), while things could've turned out much worse. Lots of nations backed down to avoid war or because they were otherwise occupied (e.g. Prussia had an uprising in Poland to deal with), but if they decided to push through, things might've ended prematurely for brittle newborn Belgium.
 

unmerged(150564)

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I agree with alot of that post Rhion but i disagree with the france guranteeing belgium, the only thing that will do is knock the dutch out of the game early on as they get face owned by france.
 

Herr Oberst

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I agree with alot of that post Rhion but i disagree with the france guranteeing belgium, the only thing that will do is knock the dutch out of the game early on as they get face owned by france.

That wouldn't necessarily be the case, because Rhion proposed that the campaign should start with Belgium and the Netherlands at peace. The Netherlands will only get in a war with France if they don't sign the London treaty and declare war on Belgium again, which is historically plausible.
 

Lloyien

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I agree with alot of that post Rhion but i disagree with the france guranteeing belgium, the only thing that will do is knock the dutch out of the game early on as they get face owned by france.

Assuming the AI takes Guarantees of Independence into account before declaring war, it will only cause the Dutch to avoid declaring war until France is occupied elsewhere.

However, as far as I know, for much of the period, Belgium's guaranteed by the UK and France both, so they won't really have the ability to do so.
 

Rhion

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Assuming the AI takes Guarantees of Independence into account before declaring war, it will only cause the Dutch to avoid declaring war until France is occupied elsewhere.

However, as far as I know, for much of the period, Belgium's guaranteed by the UK and France both, so they won't really have the ability to do so.
Actually, the British initially sided with the Dutch, out of fear of French annexation of Belgium. Now, by 1836 they've come to see Belgium as an ideal buffer-state, separating the great powers of continental Europe and especially isolating France. So the British guarantee was aimed mainly at France.

Another factor are the Netherlands' allies. Prussia, Austria and Russia all sided with the Dutch, but eventually, never committed troops like France did. If the Dutch had gotten help from them, they might have challenged the French anyway.
 

Andrelvis

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Actually, the British initially sided with the Dutch, out of fear of French annexation of Belgium. Now, by 1836 they've come to see Belgium as an ideal buffer-state, separating the great powers of continental Europe and especially isolating France. So the British guarantee was aimed mainly at France.

Oh, how wrong they were...
 

Andrelvis

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The British were too greedy. They wanted that one country not have control over both Antwerp and Rotterdam and ended up creating two weak buffer States instead of a medium-powered one.
 

King

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There is no war at the start of Victoria 2. Instead Holland gets a decision to sign up for the treaty of London and lose cores on Belgium, it then picks some nice bonuses for doing so.