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Allenby

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StephenT said:
In Tripolitania:
Four infantry brigades (1. Tripoli, 2. Tripoli, 3. Taranto, 4. Udine)
One cavalry brigade (Libia)

In Fezzan:
Two infantry brigades (RCTCT, RCTCS)
One light infantry brigade (1. Expeditionary)
1 irregular cavalry brigade (Libia)

Italian garrisons were situated at Tripoli, Ghadames, Sirte, Giofra, Sebha and Ghat.

There were two brigades to a division in the Italian army of this period.
Well done, T-man. You have saved us from the indignity of making everything up as we go along... :)
 
Feb 4, 2006
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I'm sure that Ottomans have strong divisions at the gates of sinai desert. and again I'm sure ottomans have infintry divs in middle east not militias. I know one of them called yildirim ordulari ( lightning armies)...
 

Allenby

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Cakmakoloji said:
I know one of them called yildirim ordulari ( lightning armies)...
Army Group Yilderim was formed in 1917.

As for the Ottoman divisions in the Middle East, they were classed as infantry divisions but little better equipped than militia units. For example, when the Inspector-General, Otto Liman von Sanders, toured the area to look at the Ottoman troops in 1914, the same set of uniforms were sent from one unit to another before his arrival in order to create a good impression...
 

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Allenby said:
As for the Ottoman divisions in the Middle East, they were classed as infantry divisions but little better equipped than militia units.
Sounds like they can be represented as Reserves model 0. :)
 
Last edited:
Feb 4, 2006
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come on... Ottomans IC is very low, how can you think Ottoman player can defend middle east with militas for 3.5 years? you don't think that Ottomans kept sinai for 2 years with militas. yes yildirim was formed in 1917. maybe we can make an event to activate them in 1917. Also for "army of Islam" that established in 1917 against Russians... please....
 

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Cakmakoloji said:
come on... Ottomans IC is very low, how can you think Ottoman player can defend middle east with militas for 3.5 years? you don't think that Ottomans kept sinai for 2 years with militas. yes yildirim was formed in 1917. maybe we can make an event to activate them in 1917. Also for "army of Islam" that established in 1917 against Russians... please....
No reason to worry. If we notice that Ottomans lose Middle east too often we will strength them up. However, I think that they'll be able to work just fine with this setup.
 
Aug 5, 2005
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The Ottomans kept the area for so long mostly because the British viewed the entire front as a sideshow that kept guns and men from going to Europe.
However, when the British started taking it seriously, the Ottomans melted away.
 
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Seylanov said:
The Ottomans kept the area for so long mostly because the British viewed the entire front as a sideshow that kept guns and men from going to Europe.
However, when the British started taking it seriously, the Ottomans melted away.
the reason was very bad attacking time in suez offensive for ottos. Most of Ottoman infintry were died under sand and swamps. of course british have tech advantage but again ottos have good divs on sinai...
 
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I doubt any army at the time could compete with the proffesionalism of the pre draft British army.
Except maybe the Germans.
 

StephenT

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Cakmakoloji said:
the reason was very bad attacking time in suez offensive for ottos. Most of Ottoman infintry were died under sand and swamps. of course british have tech advantage but again ottos have good divs on sinai...
You're right, they had at least one good division in the Sinai - the 10. 'Izmir' Piyade Tümeni. However, it didn't start the war in Palestine, it was brought down from Izmir to lead the attack. The mod represents this division as INF.

The other Ottoman division, the 25. 'Damascus' Piyade Tümeni, was an unreliable Arab force that suffered 1,500 casualties in the battle while inflicting only 150 losses on the British. We've classed it as MIL.
 

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StephenT said:
The other Ottoman division, the 25. 'Damascus' Piyade Tümeni, was an unreliable Arab force that suffered 1,500 casualties in the battle while inflicting only 150 losses on the British. We've classed it as MIL.
But maybe representing them as Reserves would be better. They were of low quality, but they still weren't irregulars. I think that we agreed that we should use militia for irregular units only?
 

Allenby

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I have had an issue with the Japanese order of battle brought to my attention.

Kongo is classed as a model 1 battlecruiser; however, her sisterships Hiei, Haruna and Kirishima are classed as model 3 battleships.

Is this merely an error or was there some difference in the construction of the latter three ships that merits their labelling as battleships? Conway's treats them as near identical vessels of the Kongo-class...
 

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Allenby said:
I have had an issue with the Japanese order of battle brought to my attention.

Kongo is classed as a model 1 battlecruiser; however, her sisterships Hiei, Haruna and Kirishima are classed as model 3 battleships.

Is this merely an error or was there some difference in the construction of the latter three ships that merits their labelling as battleships? Conway's treats them as near identical vessels of the Kongo-class...
It looks like an error. In the original Japanese OOB for TGW, all four ships were classed as Improved Battlecruisers.
 

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jova said:
But maybe representing them as Reserves would be better. They were of low quality, but they still weren't irregulars. I think that we agreed that we should use militia for irregular units only?
I wouldn't argue strongly if you want to class them as Reserves - although I believe that the Ottomans' Arab divisions at least were so poor in quality as to count as militia.

The WW1 Sourcebook said:
Despite some good 'demonstration' units with German instructors, training was generally poor: the Ikhtiat [Reserve] was supposedly trained one month per year, Redif [Militia] one month every two years, but internal unrest and shortage of funds prevented most of it. Officers' training was also poor, excluding the 1,500 who had trained abroad or under German instruction. Some were of extremely dubious background: Muntaz Bey, for example, who commanded the 'Northern Column' of the advance on Egypt, had murdered a fellow-officer at Salonika, escaped from prison at Jaffa and become a bandit, before ingratiating himself with Enver to gain both a pardon and an independent command.
...
Administration and support remained lamentable, beset with peculation and idleness, which compounded grievous shortages of equipment.
...
Each division thus possessed from 24 to 36 field guns, but the severe losses sustained in the Balkan War had not been restored completely, and guns were in short supply...older 87mm German field guns and even antique smoothbored howitzers were also in service, the latter of very limited value.
Of course the Ottoman army included some excellent units, as Gallipoli and Kut would show - but when they were bad, they were seriously bad.
 

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StephenT said:
I wouldn't argue strongly if you want to class them as Reserves - although I believe that the Ottomans' Arab divisions at least were so poor in quality as to count as militia.
Another reason for my wish to treat them as reserves is related with the technology tree. If the Ottomans are fielding 1895 infantry divisions in the starting OOB, than they shouldn't have the 1912 inf tech which also enables them to have militia model 1. Using militia model 0 is too drastic; that units were bad, very bad, but not that bad. Reserves model 0 are not much better than militia model 1, they have somewhat higher org, but attack and defence values are very similar, and Ottomans have that tech.
 

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Every playtest report so far shows Germany being unhistorically weak. As a solution, I propose giving Germany tech 1040 (1915 infantry) at the start of the January 1914 scenario, and making all her Regular infantry divisions (not the ones listed as Reserveinfanteriedivisionen) Infantry model/3 instead of model/2.

In addition, as I proposed in post 55 of this thread, Germany should get 20 Artillery, 15 Heavy Weapons, and 2 Super-Heavy Artillery brigades.
(That's approximately one brigade per three divisions, or one per two INF divisions)

Other minor changes: 10. /11. /27. Landwehrbrigade should be reserve, not militia. Presumably Schutztruppe Kamerun should be Light Infantry (as are all the other German Schutztruppe) not Militia? Or was this done to represent native levies?
 

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Here's the revised German .inc file containing these changes:

File

I've given the two heavy artillery brigades to the VII Korps in Munster - this was the unit that spearheaded the attack on Liége. Otherwise, I allocated one artillery brigade per regular korps, and when I'd allocated all 20 I started on the 15 heavy weapons brigades, again one per korps and then one per reservekorps until I ran out.
 
I shall try it with the revised resources for Germany as well. Please see the "Resources and Manpower" thread for the link to the revised province.csv file. This will eliminate the rare materials crisis with much more reasonable trade scenarios.

Edit: and I'm working on AI for Belgium and Germany, so we shall see what occurs. :)