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vicerory

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PDS can't please everyone. Most/Many people didn't like the OOB.

People keep saying this, but is it actually true? Maybe many people didn't like the HOI III OOB, that doesn't mean people actually dislike having an OOB. I think most players would have thought the move to an OOB from II to III was a step in the right direction. Most people who are complaining about the lack of an OOB seem to want some of the problems with the old one fixed, rather than just have the same OOB as we had in III. The way the OOB is now feels like throwing out the baby with the bathwater.
 
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No idea

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We do understand that. It's just that it would be a lot of work for the developers, for a feature not too many people want. Look at the mess the HOI3 OOB was.
I wouldn't mind it if tthey made a kind of "OOB DLC", but I really don't see it happening due to the cost-benefit ratio.

Also keep in mind HOI4 is already considered delayed. I certainly don't want the devs to start working on another new feature now, I just want the game to get out the door.

Frankly, making an OOB organizator wouldnt be such a huge work, imho. In fact, the HOI 3 game with no expansions, had no oob organizator at all (one of PDS biggest mistakes, in Johans words) and several fans made one. If they can do it I am sure PDS can do it far quicker and better.

The other thing is IF we need an OOB. As things are now, with a Battle Planner where the Ai controls your units, the need is less than in HOI 3. Everything, regarding units and operations, seems to be automated, but if you want some amount of micromanage in HOI IV, I think making an OOB is vital. Try to run Barbarossa in HOI 3 with no organization and see how you quickly turn crazy and it becomes a clickfest (by the way, watching the videos, HOI IV seems going to be a clickfest, especially when trying to sort units out).

So, I think some having a command chain (this is, making groups and sub groups) is important unless you only want to make battle plans and let the AI run them. Even if this is the case, I am sure you will want some way to quickly choose your breakthorugh divisions, your exploit divisions and some other groups of divisions you want to keep apart from the rest.

On top of the above, an OOB gives lots of flavour.

And you dont have to use it, if you dont want, because it will give no bonuses, and it will have no on map HQs.
 
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Poulern

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Very simply why they removed corps and army groups: Here is the support range for each army:
Theater: 2000km
Army group: 600km
Army: 400km
Corps: 300km(I think, might be 200)

Obviously from playing the game it got unwieldy, so they said: Which ones cause the most headaches to micro. Army groups cause you're not going to have 5 armies within 600 km except for like invading France and stuff so those support lines would stretch and not be able to support each other unless you ditch army groups.

Corps were not much different: They outran the infantry, lagged behind Armour and were annoying to deal with if you needed to have your units spread out(Occupied pacific islands, taking north Africa, etc). And dont get me started on naval invasions. Leave them at home.

They looked at it, realized army groups are unnecessary, corps are painful and all everyone hears about is armies anyways(Just kidding of course usmc forever). Its in my own opinion, a much better system that can be fixed with expansions and such.
 
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Zaku

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People keep saying this, but is it actually true?

Yes it is. Different people like different things.

Maybe many people didn't like the HOI III OOB, that doesn't mean people actually dislike having an OOB.
I think most players would have thought the move to an OOB from II to III was a step in the right direction.

I remember back when HOI3 came out most people hated the OOB system because it was buggy as hell. Even after 3 expansions, and several huge patches it barely functions.

Most people who are complaining about the lack of an OOB seem to want some of the problems with the old one fixed, rather than just have the same OOB as we had in III.

Define fixing. PDS "fixed" it by simplifying the OOB to armies and theatres.

The way the OOB is now feels like throwing out the baby with the bathwater.

For you maybe. I like the new system.
 
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vicerory

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Yes it is. Different people like different things.

"Yes it is. No it's not."
OK

I remember back when HOI3 came out most people hated the OOB system because it was buggy as hell. Even after 3 expansions, and several huge patches it barely functions.

Hardly anyone is arguing that we should go back to the HOI III OOB. Just because PI didn't manage to create a solid immersive OOB system that the AI could handle during their first try, in a game that was buggy overall, doesn't prove that it's somehow impossible or undesirable to do so.


Define fixing. PDS "fixed" it by simplifying the OOB to armies and theatres.

For you maybe. I like the new system.

Fundamentally the new system can't even be called an OOB at this point, as OOB's have a hierarchy in which units are placed. The proposed HOI IV system has no hierarchy at all, just groups of divisions co-existing on the same level, and an overall 'folder' to put them in (the theater), which doesn't do anything other than control reinforcement (no battle plan for theater, no commander, etc). If that's an OOB, than most RTS games qualify for that as well, as you can CTRL+G to create groups.

Removing something completely (the OOB/hierarchy) isn't fixing a problem.

The way I see it, the method of controlling units in HOI III had 2 main problems: it required a ton of micro, and the AI couldn't handle it. Micro can be reduced a ton by:
(1) Removing division generals or create a better tool to easily appoint and manage them.
(2) Restricting the OOB to 2 (Army/Group) or 3 levels (Corps/Army/AGroup) and creating a better tool to move divisions/corps/army around (like dragging them on the map instead of the clickfest of detach/attach that was HOI III.

That alone vastly reduces the amount of micro involved in setting up and changing the OOB.

As for the AI, the problem there is more tied to the battle plans than to the OOB IMHO. The Human player can make his own groups (like panzer spearheads) and deploy them effectively. Can the AI? Is it able to take a massive front like Russia, and deploy it's armies in a way that seeks to encircle the enemy through deep thrusts, rather than the road roller technique it used in HOI III. The AI is still made to use these general/FM groupings, so it still needs to know how to set up groups effectively. If it can do that, why couldn't it set-up a 2-level hierarchy?

I think at this point the pro-OOB folks (including myself) have all but given up on the idea of recreating a realistic OOB in HOI IV (at least until someone can either mod it or there is an expansion), and that's fine, it's a game, I can live with that, but I don't think asking for 1 or 2 levels of hierarchy, so that you can create an overall Army Group battle plan, and have it use sub-groups (Armies) to carry out that plan, is a massive ask, nor a return to a HOI III-style OOB.
 
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Zaku

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"Yes it is. No it's not."
OK

I don't understand you, what's the problem with what I said?
People are different so they like different things.

As for the rest, I will not argue because liking/disliking the current OOB is a hundred percent personal preference.
 
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vicerory

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I don't understand you, what's the problem with what I said?
People are different so they like different things.

As for the rest, I will not argue because liking/disliking the current OOB is a hundred percent personal preference.

It was just a part of the argument going nowhere. You said people think A, I said people think B. Neither really backed it up, so I thought I'd just skip it entirely.
 
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rjohansen

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I am ok with Divisions have no leaders - but I still wish it would be possible to have Corps/Armies/Army Groups/Theatres IF YOU WANTED TO. They should instead have made it simpler for those THAT DONT WANT TO. Like you could get away with 1 or 2 organization levels if you so wish. But taking out levels all together really is sad. Also, the HQ didn't even necessary need to be ON the map - allthough I never had a problem with it in HOI3. I just loved keeping the organization tight and structured in HOI3.

PS: I still would have liked to have divisional leaders... But I am ok with the decision. Took a lot of time and not all found it very fun. Also, the tools in HOI3 was not good enough to sort through leaders and divisions and more. There were tools developed that where good though, but you had to go out of the game, sort out OOB and then get into the game again.

I find it very very sad at least. I do have hopes for an OOB DLC down the line, and perhaps that is the reason its not in the game from the starty anyhow. But it is just so tiresome to have to wait for DLCs...
 
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What they instead should have done for those that didn't like the OOB of HOI3 is to also have a "simple solution" like you could still use Armies and attach divisions straight below that, no need for corps if you didn't wish to. Same with Army Groups. And you could select a choice at start if you wanted to have an effect on this or not.
 
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CocoCincinnati

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Another thing I've seen brought up about the OOB in 3 is that the AI wasn't able to handle it and that is a legitimate argument. I certainly want a system that the AI can handle, so lets explore an example that might arise in HOI4. The Germans launch Operation Barbarossa and soon have a large group of Soviet forces surrounded in a the Pripet Marshes. Now a human player would strip off some infantry divisions from the Field Marshal and attach them to a Swamp Fox General to finish off the pocket and then once done, will give those Infantry back to the Field Marshal. Will the AI be able to do the same?
 
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fabius

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First thing we should do is start calling any request for a hierarchy is refer to it as Command Structure or something. OOB has too many negative connotations now with both devs and many players.

The major pain with HoI3's OOB were too many Division leaders, and HQ range. AI couldn't keep the range and man assigning div leaders was a chore for only one of them to lead the battle anyway.

Less Command Structure is fine with me. The reality is one general commanded operations anyway, and parade ground structures often went out of the window as units were moved around to fit the need.

That said, I can see an two tier Command Structure easily fitting HoI4 with FMs commanding theatres, Generals armies within them. And is would imagine well with the dev capability to get the AI to manage that as much as they do for army/navy composition and indeed.
 
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HOI3's system required way too much Micro. Also, it was frustrating that small counties never had enough officers to fill the ranks despite being at 150% leadership for new officer creation. I couldn't be happier with this new approach.
 
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GeneralPetrov

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I have no strong opinion on this matter and refuse to have one until I've actually tried the system for myself. Criticising or praising a gameplay mechanic I have not yet tested, is like criticising or praising the taste of a food I have not yet tasted.
 

Aismov

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Jan 25, 2016
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I pretty much lurk on the forums but figured I would add my two cents to this discussion.

I personally liked the OOB in HOI3, yes it was a bit clunky in presentation, but it worked wonders for logically and efficiently organizing your army. The "upfront" time of say 30 mins at the start of the game was well worth it. I guess I'm one of those "micro" guys.

The reason I like the OOB is because it gives you a lot of strategic flexibilty; I would play GER frequently, and for example I would have my tank divisions organized in a larger mechanized korps; for example:

Army Group A
> 1st Army
> Panzer Corps 1
> 1st PzDiv
> 2nd PzDiv
> 3rd PzDiv
> 1st Motorized
> 2nd Motorized

A bit bland I agree (I would rename all infantry divisions and number them 1-100 and so on as well), but if I was planning a big operation say in the south where I needed army, I could quickly click on my panzer corps, detach it from 1st Army, re-attach it to say 3rd Army, and then do a strategic redeploy to my staging area. It was great and allowed me to do great double pincers manuevers. Granted this was on 100% manual control (I don't AI a single thing).

To each his own I guess. I can understand why some people just want to get up and go and not bother with organization and "micro" but like I said I personally liked the OOB since it added something that was actually important and useful to help manage your armies. If anything I would have improved and built upon it rather than scrapping it. Or at least give players the options to use it.
 
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I pretty much lurk on the forums but figured I would add my two cents to this discussion.

I personally liked the OOB in HOI3, yes it was a bit clunky in presentation, but it worked wonders for logically and efficiently organizing your army. The "upfront" time of say 30 mins at the start of the game was well worth it. I guess I'm one of those "micro" guys.

The reason I like the OOB is because it gives you a lot of strategic flexibilty; I would play GER frequently, and for example I would have my tank divisions organized in a larger mechanized korps; for example:

Army Group A
> 1st Army
> Panzer Corps 1
> 1st PzDiv
> 2nd PzDiv
> 3rd PzDiv
> 1st Motorized
> 2nd Motorized

A bit bland I agree (I would rename all infantry divisions and number them 1-100 and so on as well), but if I was planning a big operation say in the south where I needed army, I could quickly click on my panzer corps, detach it from 1st Army, re-attach it to say 3rd Army, and then do a strategic redeploy to my staging area. It was great and allowed me to do great double pincers manuevers. Granted this was on 100% manual control (I don't AI a single thing).

To each his own I guess. I can understand why some people just want to get up and go and not bother with organization and "micro" but like I said I personally liked the OOB since it added something that was actually important and useful to help manage your armies. If anything I would have improved and built upon it rather than scrapping it. Or at least give players the options to use it.

It's even easier in HOI4. You make an "Armoured Divs" theatre and put your tanks in there with appropriate generals. Whenever a front requires an armoured breakthrough you can jump to the divisions you want instantly and go straight to making a battle plan. And you don't even need to remember to detach the panzer corp from 3rd army and put it back into 1st army as you did in HOI3 once it's finished

I foresee a lot of people making a special forces theatre for specialised mountain troops, urban specialists and paratroopers.
 

Aismov

Recruit
Jan 25, 2016
9
25
I agree that does sound a lot easier. I guess the devil will be in the details. Will the AI be able to do this correctly and efficiently or will they muck up the operations? I guess only time will tell.

For example this is one of my "micro" operations which went pretty much exactly as planned. I'm not so sure that the AI would have been able to pull this off.
hoi3.jpg
 
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safe-keeper

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i think the fact we can manually micro units that are in a general's control still would allow this to work
Yeah, we have the choice between manual and AI control just like in HOI3.
 
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GsusNSV

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I agree that does sound a lot easier. I guess the devil will be in the details. Will the AI be able to do this correctly and efficiently or will they muck up the operations?
By Johan:
Of course, Andersson admits that no plan survives first contact with the enemy. That's why players will need to pay attention to battle groups as they advance — or fail to advance — and make adjustments as necessary.
http://www.polygon.com/features/2016/1/25/10806780/hearts-of-iron-4-and-the-hard-work-of-history
 
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