OOB Hearts of Iron IV and III

[HeilLoki]

Herein lies the rub: we've gone from a highly-detailed, very complex game system which (semi-)accurately portrayed the issues of Army Command and Control (less so for the Naval or Air Forces) to one that is very simple in concept.

On the first hand, the HoI3 is relatively easy to grasp for human players, even if a pain to deal with. The issue was that the AI couldn't handle it. Now we have a system that the AI and humans can handle, but that gives an issue to player's who wonder why it has to be child's play easy. I still have to say that I believe the system could be tweaked only slightly and give us superior rewards: a two-tiered system that has a FM/FADM at the theater level (think Kesselring or Nimitz who commanded zones of "joint" forces) who's experience dictates how big of a front he can control and the Army/Fleet level with generals who's skills dictate how many units can be attached to their command.

This is really a minor tweak to the system already in place and would be the best cross between the HoI2/3/4 systems that I could come up with which could best answer the concerns I've seen the most of and yet be fairly simple to implement.

Agreed, BUT there should be at least a third level or a simple option to add more levels. Just like folders on your computer. I can have deep folder-systems, but if I don't want them, I don't need to make 'em.

 

[HeilLoki]

The reason why you can't play HoI3 with just the 2 organizational levels is because of the "only 5 x per x" limit. If that wasn't there, I could easily manage a 300-400 division army with only corps and armies.

So you don't mind having a 400 divisions list to scroll through like it is in HoI IV, because there is no on-map HQ?!

 

[ringhloth]

So you don't mind having a 400 divisions list to scroll through like it is in HoI IV, because there is no on-map HQ?!

No, I mind that. That would be terrible. Thankfully, we don't have that in HoI3 or HoI4, since a 400 division sized army will never be necessary or useful. Nor will you ever really need to pick out one faceless infantry division out of a massive list of them, because that one infantry division isn't really more important than any other infantry division (unless it's located at a strategic point, in which case you navigate to the strategic point, and select that infantry division). Now, if you have groups of special forces, who you use for breakthroughs and the like, you can put them in a special breakthrough theater and then assign them to a group of ~10-15 other special forces divisions. Then that group of special forces is much easier to locate than it was in HoI3, since you can just click a face at the bottom of your screen, rather than hunting and pecking through infantry divisions until you find someone in the correct army, and so on.

 

[HeilLoki]

No, I mind that. That would be terrible. Thankfully, we don't have that in HoI3 or HoI4, since a 400 division sized army will never be necessary or useful. Nor will you ever really need to pick out one faceless infantry division out of a massive list of them, because that one infantry division isn't really more important than any other infantry division (unless it's located at a strategic point, in which case you navigate to the strategic point, and select that infantry division). Now, if you have groups of special forces, who you use for breakthroughs and the like, you can put them in a special breakthrough theater and then assign them to a group of ~10-15 other special forces divisions. Then that group of special forces is much easier to locate than it was in HoI3, since you can just click a face at the bottom of your screen, rather than hunting and pecking through infantry divisions until you find someone in the correct army, and so on.

Sure, but now I have 10 theatres with 3 generals each OR 3 theatres with 10 generals each.... and I'm not even talking about the fact that either option lacks any customization beyond assigning ONE level of leader.

That's what we're talking about (I used my epic paint-skills to show you how this would look like). I don't like it. I'm sorry. I just don't. It's cluttered and uses too much space.

 

[LordOfWar16]

People keep saying they "had" to spend time on it...but there was an auto-assign box you could check off. Technically you could play the whole game never having bothered. There you had an option.

In HOI4 you have no option to micromanage even if you want to.

Its not a "chore" if you have the choice. In my opinion changing something is one thing. Removing an option is always a negative.

if you implement an feature that most people are simply going to automize because they dont want to be bothered with it all the time, then it is not an good feature in the first place. If the developers themself would have been happy with it, they would have kept it. The new system allows you to manage your divisions just as precise as with the old system, just with the onmap HQ's being gone. If you want an corp, simply create an smaller army. If you want an army group simply assign the number of divisions you need to an field marshal.

The only thing that i see as an potential problem, i havent played the game yet so i cant really judge it propperly at the moment, is that there seems to be an lack of organization on the inside of an army. It would be nice to be able to group the list of divisions on the left side in some way, since it looks a bit messy at times if you look at an field marshal with 60 divisions (or more) under him.

 

[Cowsnipe]

1.) They removed A LOT of customization by getting rid of OOB completely. E.g. I can't create my perfect forst buster division anymore, because I can't stack bonuses from different OOB-levels.

You mean you can't game the system to your advantage anymore.

 

[thexmassteam]

It would be cool if we at least have tools to organize the division's list. Something that have no impact on combat and not used by AI but give to humans the possibility to group and sort those units in anyway.

 

[vicerory]

It seems to me that the current 'non-tiered' system actually punishes players who want to do as little micromanaging as possible (oddly enough). I am forced to put my Panzers into a separate group from my main FM army just to get the appropriate leader bonus. Why can't the AI just handle all the tanks/infantry divisions in 1 big battle plan? Why am I forced to make separate plans to get the panzer bonus for my tanks?

 

[amalric de g.]

You had one large group that you assigned swaths of infantry to, and gave it to AI control - the AI is great at managing infantry, far better than I ever will be. Then, I made a separate army where I had my armored divisions, my special forces, and other important assets, and personally commanded that to make breakthroughs and envelop enemies. In HoI4, you can make big groups of divisions you just want to defend a front, while you have smaller groups who you personally take command of, making sure your breakthrough goes as you want it to.

In Hoi3 the AI was not good at commanding anything, or is attacking a Armoured-Div. with one Inf-Div. a smart move? Or attacking Norway with 50 - 60 Inf.-Divs as Germany and let them bleed there to death, because all units are for years out of supply.
I only used the AI command for the whack-amole partisan mop up in the SU.

No, I mind that. That would be terrible. Thankfully, we don't have that in HoI3 or HoI4, since a 400 division sized army will never be necessary or useful.

And the Red Army?

 

[vicerory]

In Hoi3 the AI was not good at commanding anything, or is attacking a Armoured-Div. with one Inf-Div. a smart move? Or attacking Norway with 50 - 60 Inf.-Divs as Germany and let them bleed there to death, because all units are for years out of supply.
I only used the AI command for the whack-amole partisan mop up in the SU.

I didn't want to bring it up, but if it's indeed the case that the AI still can't deal with it, why not just have a more historical OOB (or at least make it optional)?

 

[Aries666]

Going from the dev diary of the 22nd, it is now clear that Hoi3's OOB system has been abandoned.
In Hoi3 there was an OOB system ranging from the Division level, over Corps-, Army- and Army-group-level until reaching Theatre level. This system has now been done away with, instead using only the Army- and Theatre level.

I'd like to see your opinion on the matter. Personally, I think this step took away far to much complexity and over simplyfied the system, even making it less clear. It also takes away alot of the realism, as a normal Army would never have looked like that.

It could do with being a little more complex, however, having spent around 3 hours crafting an OOB as SOV in HOI3 I'm glad they haven't recreated that!

 

[HeilLoki]

You mean you can't game the system to your advantage anymore.

It was meant to be used that way, you know. That's why they created it in the first place - maximum customization. Being efficient is NOT "gaming the system".

Whatever... You get the upvotes (because f**k complexity and customization options - everyone on this forum wants a dumbed down game) and I will have my 2-3 "fans" that are going to downvote me, whatever I write.


Edit: Yes, removing OOBs was an actual act of dumbing this game down. I would like them to make it more accessible and easy to use and I'd like to see all the bonuses I get etc., but instead of improving the system, they scrapped it. *sigh*

 

[HeilLoki]

if you implement an feature that most people are simply going to automize because they dont want to be bothered with it all the time, then it is not an good feature in the first place. If the developers themself would have been happy with it, they would have kept it. The new system allows you to manage your divisions just as precise as with the old system, just with the onmap HQ's being gone. If you want an corp, simply create an smaller army. If you want an army group simply assign the number of divisions you need to an field marshal.

I don't want HOI III style on-map HQs back - nobody does. What are you talking about? The issue with HQs was, that they were just stupid to handle and micro intense and many people didn't even understand, why it was necessary to have leaders in the first place. If they made this feature MORE ACCESSIBLE instead of getting rid of it, everyone would be happy and it is simply not true that it is just as precise, because you cannot customize as much. It is LESS precise.

How to solve the issue:

- Show the actual numbers! (HoI 3 didn't tell me what bonuses I received down from having an OOB)

- Don't force people to use it! (I'm fine with having Field Marshalls having 300 division under them. If people don't want to customize their army, fine)

- Don't make onmap HQs with range limitation.

The only thing that i see as an potential problem, i havent played the game yet so i cant really judge it propperly at the moment, is that there seems to be an lack of organization on the inside of an army. It would be nice to be able to group the list of divisions on the left side in some way, since it looks a bit messy at times if you look at an field marshal with 60 divisions (or more) under him.

OMG... are you kidding me? That's my whole freaking point!!! You contradict yourself in your own post!!! You said, you don't need corps, but the next thing you say is that you "i see [..] an potential problem" with not being able to group 60 divisions... What do you think I'm talking about all the freaking time?

 

[Jamey]

The new OOB in HoI IV is absolutely superior in terms of the game's form and flow. The AI could not use it in HoI3 and making the AI try to abide by it for HoI4 would sacrifice time the AI programmers could do to improve the AI elsewhere. In addition, adding it to HoIV would still provide for an easier game because the AI, even if it were programmed to try and keep CoCs in mind, will certainly make mistakes with their OOB that a good player would not.

This largely sums up my opinion on this topic.

AI couldn't really auto manage the corps HQs, they always lost their divsions eventually. Even Armies were often out of range.

Even worse, play in Siberia, where the provinces are so large and Corps (and sometimes Armies) cannot reach the next province within range. I modded in every level of OOB to have Theatre range, which resulted in the OOB keeping within range, but all HQs staying far back from the front. It was better, but still wonky.

My last note on the topic is that setting up the OOB and reorganizing everything got really tedious really fast. I wound up using the Custom Game Mode more often than not because it was less tedious to reorganize the initial setup.

 

[The Tactician]

I actually think the new gameplay mechanics are awesome the OOBs were a black hole for time in the game that took hours to plan as a major country like germany or soviet union who had almost 400 to 500 divisions can you even imagine this amount of micromanagement so I for one am glad they are gone they were terribly complex. the new games actually emphasizes on everything else diplomacy, politics, research, industry and production, etc. in a way hoi3 never did ,hoi4 shows that this was a global war in every field in the countries from the factories to the battlefields to the high command and also the new air and naval warfare in hoi4 are awesome and way more accessible and easier to use than ever unlike in HOI3 where they where almost impossible to use and not didn;t really make big impacts( well the navy was a bit easier and had a much bigger impact than the airforce which was a lot more complex to use and didn't really have that big of an impact) also the air warfare doctrine tree was unbelievably long and I think the new doctrine trees in research are way better.
I think with all the flaws in my opinion in hio3 fixed and enhanced(as previously stated) and with a lot of cool new additions to the game like world tension and peace conferences and equipment production I think hoi4 is looking like it is not only going to be the best hoi but the best game I have ever played because I already love hoi games.

 

[HeilLoki]

It's impressive how people can ignore that it's NOT a black and white issue. There are more options than either "nothing" or exactly like HOI 3.

 

[HeilLoki]

I really want to see, who disagrees with the notion that there is least one more option to how OOBs are handled! It baffles me that there are people out there downvoting even selfevident truths like that.

Why are ratings anonymous?

 

[tommylotto]

You can find out who is down voting you from a link on your profile page.

Yes, there is a middle ground. Allow two tiers of generals. Field Marshals at the theater level and Generals at the Army level. The AI could handle that easily. Then add optional persistent groupings under the Army level that do not get a general and no bonuses. These grouping would be completely optional for the player, would be ignored by the AI, but would be there for organizational purposes for those players that want more control.

 

[amalric de g.]

You can find out who is down voting you from a link on your profile page.

Yes, there is a middle ground. Allow two tiers of generals. Field Marshals at the theater level and Generals at the Army level. The AI could handle that easily. Then add optional persistent groupings under the Army level that do not get a general and no bonuses. These grouping would be completely optional for the player, would be ignored by the AI, but would be there for organizational purposes for those players that want more control.

Exactly this would be great.

 

[No idea]

I think the argument should not be Hoi iv oob (or lack of it) vs hoi III oob. It should be: do we want any kind of oob? And if so, which one?

Personally i thinkan oob is vital for a ww II game that wants to be serious. It ads realism, flavour and makes managing your army far easier.

I think a command hierarchy similar to that of hoi III would be good, but with some tweaks and changes:

1. No more genrals for divisions. It was a hell of Micro.

2. No bonuses for the different generals you attach in thecommand hierarchy. Apparently the ai had no id ea how to assign its generals in a proper way. If it cant be taught to do it correctly, itis better to get rid of that feature.

3. Better tools for making an oob in a quick and easy way. In vanilla hoi we didnt even get an oob organizator. Thereshouldbe one from th very begining IF we get an oob (sooner or later) in hoi iv

4. Since the oob should just be a flavour and organizative thing, players who dont want to spend time making an oob should not get any "penalties"

5. No more on map hqs.

In short, i think an oob is a must, but not exactly like the one we got in Hoi III