OOB and information of China for moders

[Kesselring]

CXB（西北马家军）
it can be divide into two:Qinghai and Ningxia,there are little relationship between them

Qinghai Ma's Army（青马）with Ma Bufang（马步芳）
1936：
N2C 17500men
-N9D 298B（595R,596R）299B（597R,598R）300B（599R,600R）CB（1CR,2CR）Pistol R,AR

South Qinghai Garrison Command 1CB（1CR,2CR）2CB（3CR,4CR） 3000men

5CD 1CB（1CR,2CR）2CB（3CR,4CR）IB（1R,2R）Pistol R,AR 10000men

1937：
82C（old N2C）
-100D（old N9D）（1R,2R,3R）
-Replacement B（1R,2R,3R）
-1CB（1CR,2CR）
-2CB（1CR,2CR）
-3CB（1CR,2CR）
-Special R
5CC
-5CD（1CR,2CR,3CR）
-P1CD（1CR,2CR,3CR） 8000men

Security Unit（In fact Regular army）：
South Qinghai Garrison Command 1CB（1CR,2CR）2CB（3CR,4CR）
Security 1CR（In fact a Cavalry R）
Security 2CR（In fact a Cavalry R）
National Guard Training Corps（In fact an Infantry R）
Forest Police（In fact an Infantry R）
Communication Battalion（In fact a Cavalry R）

1943:
40A
-82C
--100D（1R,2R,3R）
--P61D（old Replacement B）（1R,2R,3R）
--ICB（1CR,2CR）
--Special R
--ICR
-5CC
--5CD（1CR,2CR,3CR）
--P1CD（1CR,2CR,3CR）

Provincial Security Group（省保安团） 150000 men
1 district:9 IR,9 CR
2 district:5 IR,1 CR
3 district:4 IR,1 CR
4 district:5 IR,4 CR
5 district:13 CR
6 district:1 IR,4 CR
7 district:4 CR
8 district:8 CR
9 district:8 IR,5 CR
10 district:2 CR
11 district:2 CR
12 district:2 CR
13 district:9 CR
14 district:1 CR
Special district:8 CR
（total 105 R,each about 1430 men）

 

[Lord Rommel]

Hey
Your list is nice but i think we can need somekind of legend/explanation
because it is quiet difficult to understand and use your datas.

E.g.

Qinghai Ma's Army(青马)with Ma Bufang(马步芳)
1936:
N2C
-N9D 298B(595R,596R)299B(597R,598R)300B(599R,600R)CB(1C R,2CR)Pistol R,AR

What does "N2C" or "N9D" or "298B" mean?

So all your information and details are nice and interesting but
when no one can use it...

 

[Limith]

Hey
Your list is nice but i think we can need somekind of legend/explanation
because it is quiet difficult to understand and use your datas.

E.g.

What does "N2C" or "N9D" or "298B" mean?

So all your information and details are nice and interesting but
when no one can use it...

I can figure out most of it, except for the ones starting with P.

N2C -> New 2nd Corps (新2)
N9D -> New 2nd Division 598B(595R, 596R) ->585th Brigade(595th Regiment, 596th Regiment)
CB -> Cavalry Brigade (1CR, 2CR) ->1 Cavalry Regiment, 2 Cavalry Regiment)Pistol Regiment (whatever that means), AR -> Artillery Regiment (can't be armored)
IR->Infantry Regiment
I8R/B/D-> Independent 8th Regiment/Brigade/Division
N5C P2D -> New 5th Corps ?????

Keep in mind Lord Rommel, that if no strength numbers are given, assume actual strength is 1 organization lower since China's army at this time use a different naming standard that usually had divisions only be brigade strength, etc.

 

[Epaminondas]

I've struck the same problem when trying to compare this data with the CORE deployment for 1936 (the only CORE scenario). So far I'm having the devil's own job trying to reconcile the two. One thing is clear, however, and that is that because of the strength of very many of the units described in nexus' OoB some adjustment to the HoI/DH notion of a 'division' is going to be required. As I see it there are two ways to go - first to include all the units as nexus lists them but to cap their sizes appropriately, the second is to collapse them as required into conventional DH divisions. As far as I can see to this point CORE has chosen Door No.2 and that's particularly interesting since CORE allows for 6 battalion divisions. I really need to go to the development diary to try to sort this out.

 

[Kesselring]

I can figure out most of it, except for the ones starting with P.

N2C -> New 2nd Corps (新2)
N9D -> New 2nd Division 598B(595R, 596R) ->585th Brigade(595th Regiment, 596th Regiment)
CB -> Cavalry Brigade (1CR, 2CR) ->1 Cavalry Regiment, 2 Cavalry Regiment)Pistol Regiment (whatever that means), AR -> Artillery Regiment (can't be armored)
IR->Infantry Regiment
I8R/B/D-> Independent 8th Regiment/Brigade/Division
N5C P2D -> New 5th Corps ?????

Keep in mind Lord Rommel, that if no strength numbers are given, assume actual strength is 1 organization lower since China's army at this time use a different naming standard that usually had divisions only be brigade strength, etc.

Yes，A for Army（集团军）
N for New（新编）
P for Provisional （暂编）
most I for Independent（独立）like I2B ,a little for Infantry like 2IR
Special R（特务团） in fact is guard R for the leader
Pistol Regiment（手枪团）armed with Mauser pistol，used as submachine gun，is elite unit

I will give the strength number,
all CHI unit are not full strength

an extreme example：Huang Rui（黄叡）in Liu Weihui's Army,nick name is five-alone Commander，he's a Major General division commander，but only one brigade in the division,and only one regiment in the brigade,and only one battalion in the regiment,and only one company in the battalion.

 

[Epaminondas]

an extreme example：Huang Rui（黄叡）in Liu Weihui's Army,nick name is five-alone Commander，he's a Major General division commander，but only one brigade in the division,and only one regiment in the brigade,and only one battalion in the regiment,and only one company in the battalion.

Yes, that's extreme alright. I used to consider the Spanish navy having more admirals than ships to be the ultimate example of organisational empire building, but I think this beats it.

 

[Kesselring]

Ningxia Ma's Army（宁马）with Ma Hongkui（马鸿逵）
1936：
11C
-N7D 1B（1R,2R）2B（3R,4R）3B（5R,6R）
-I10B（1R,2R）
-1CB
-2CB

35D 103B（205R,206R）104B（207R,208R）105B（210R,209R）CR

Provincial Security Group（省保安团）
1 Security B
2 Security B
total 4 R :3 IR,1 CR

1939:
17A
-11C 32000men
--168D（old N7D）
--I10B
--1CB
--2CB
--Ningxia 1 Security B
--Ningxia 2 Security B
-81C 13616men
--35D
--I35B
--CR

 

[Kesselring]

CSX（晋系军阀）
it can be divide into three:Shanxi and Suiyuan,Hebei,Shandong.there are little relationship between them

Shandong （山东）with Han Fuqu（韩复渠）
1936：
3 Route Army 60000men
-6C
--22D 64B（127R,128R,129R） 66B（130R,131R,132R）
--29D 85B（169R,170R） 86B（171R,172R）87B（173R,174R）AR
--74D 220B（439R,440R） 221B（443R,444R）
-12C
--20D 58B（115R,116R） 59B（117R,118R）60B（119R,120R）AR,Mortar R
--81D 241B（481R,482R） 243B（485R,486R）
-Pistol B（1R,2R）
-I1AR
-I2AR
-I Mortar R

Provincial Security Group（省保安团）（all the same as regular army） 30000 men
1 Route Militia Command
2 Route Militia Command
3 Route Militia Command
4 Route Militia Command
5 Route Militia Command

 

[Kesselring]

Hebei（河北）with Song Zheyuan（宋哲元）

1936:
29C 100000men
-Special B（1R,2R）
-37D 109B（217R,218R）110B（219R,220R）111B（221R,222R）Special R
--I25B（673R,675R）
-38D 112B（223R,224R）113B（225R,226R）114B（227R,228R）Special R
--I26B（676R,678R）
-132D 1B（1R,2R）109B（217R,218R）Special R
--I27B（679R,681R）
--I28B（682R,684R）
-143D 1B（1R,2R）2B（3R,4R）Special R
--I29B（685R,687R）
--I40B（718R,719R）
-9CD 1CB（1CR,2CR,3CR）2CB（4CR,5CR,6CR）
-Special B（1R,2R）
-I39B（715R,717R,Special R）
-13CB（1CR,2CR,3CR）

Provincial Security Group（省保安团）（all the same as regular army）
North Hebei Security Group 1B 2B 3000men
South Hebei Security Group（1R,2R）

 

[Ober]

Hey Nexus, do you have any sources about East Turkestan Republic's Army? Well, Wikipedia lists like six units and estimates Turkic army's size to 50-60 thousands, but maybe there's more to it? Also, if you have any interesting stuff concerning ETR (but only first one from 30s), that'd be, well, excellent.

The thing is you see, it is quite hard to find much detailed info on all China stuff. Long time ago, back in HoI2 times, I wanted to create Sino-Japanese War battlescenario with my friend, but lack of info about KMT army...killed it. And that's problem for all the modder-people, sadly. So, it's really, really good to see all these stuff. Certainly super-useful. Mucho thanks

 

[Kesselring]

Hey Nexus, do you have any sources about East Turkestan Republic's Army? Well, Wikipedia lists like six units and estimates Turkic army's size to 50-60 thousands, but maybe there's more to it? Also, if you have any interesting stuff concerning ETR (but only first one from 30s), that'd be, well, excellent.

The thing is you see, it is quite hard to find much detailed info on all China stuff. Long time ago, back in HoI2 times, I wanted to create Sino-Japanese War battlescenario with my friend, but lack of info about KMT army...killed it. And that's problem for all the modder-people, sadly. So, it's really, really good to see all these stuff. Certainly super-useful. Mucho thanks

East Turkestan Republic is taboo in CHC,I can only try to find something in Xinjiang file

 

[Kesselring]

For TRP
U03 East Hebei Autonomous Council（冀东防共自治政府）
-1D
-2D
each 2 R with 3 Bn
the two is form East Hebei Security Group，10000 men ，it still in 29C’s OOB，after http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tungchow_Mutiny it back to CHI
-3D
-4D
the two is form MAN's puppet army
-5D
is form bandit
the three together is only 8 Bn，about 4000 men

 

[Kesselring]

Shanxi（山西）with Yan Xishan（阎锡山）
1936：
19C
-70D
-72D
33C
-69D
-71D
34C
-66D
-73D
35C
-68D
-101D
N2D
1CD
2CD
I1B
I2B
I3B
I7B
I8B

 

[Limith]

Hey Nexus, do you have any sources about East Turkestan Republic's Army? Well, Wikipedia lists like six units and estimates Turkic army's size to 50-60 thousands, but maybe there's more to it? Also, if you have any interesting stuff concerning ETR (but only first one from 30s), that'd be, well, excellent.

The thing is you see, it is quite hard to find much detailed info on all China stuff. Long time ago, back in HoI2 times, I wanted to create Sino-Japanese War battlescenario with my friend, but lack of info about KMT army...killed it. And that's problem for all the modder-people, sadly. So, it's really, really good to see all these stuff. Certainly super-useful. Mucho thanks

I have a good OOB for ETR in DHF for 1.04. Just missing leaders. I'll post it once my laptop gets fixed (~4 weeks. :/ )

 

[novapaddy]

You got any modern OOB's for China..for the MDS2 mod.

I don't want you to get arrested or anything like that, just a broad overview would suffice, if you possibly can?
.. and if China is, or is going to have the revolution in military affairs... like the USA?

and anything about China's defence strategy... I would imagine it is like the Russian's... just concerned about Russia>adjacent countries>allies... ?

Cheers

 

[Kesselring]

CGX（桂系军阀）
it can be divide into two:Guangxi and Guangdong,and Guangdong lead Guangxi.

Guangxi（广西）with Li Zongren（李宗仁）
1936：
7C 12335men
-19D
-24D
15C 16320men
-43D
-44D
-45D
total 14 R

1936.6：
4A
-7C
--19D
--21D
--24D
-8C
--20D
--22D
--23D
-15C
--43D
--44D
--45D
-25D
-26D
-27D
-28D
-29D
-30D
-31D
-32D
-33D
-34D
-46D
-47D
total about 100000men

1936.9：
4A
-7C
--19D
--21D
--24D
-15C
--43D
--44D
--45D
-N1D

1937.2：
5 Route Army
-7C
--170D
--171D
--172D
-48C
--173D
--174D
--175D
-176D

 

[Kretoxian]

You got any modern OOB's for China..for the MDS2 mod.

I don't want you to get arrested or anything like that, just a broad overview would suffice, if you possibly can?
.. and if China is, or is going to have the revolution in military affairs... like the USA?

and anything about China's defence strategy... I would imagine it is like the Russian's... just concerned about Russia>adjacent countries>allies... ?

Cheers

Have you checked this?

http://www.sinodefence.com/army/organisation/army-orbat.asp

 

[novapaddy]

Have you checked this?

http://www.sinodefence.com/army/organisation/army-orbat.asp

Much Obliged!

 

[Kesselring]

Guangdong（广东）with Li Zongren（李宗仁）
1936：
1C
-1D
-2D
-3D
2C
-4D
-5D
-6D
3C
-7D
-8D
-9D
I1D
I2D
I3D
I4D
Teach D
I1B
I2B
I3B
Guard B
toatal 150000men

1936.7
4 Route Army 150000men
-151D
-152D
-153D
-154D
-155D
-156D
-157D
-158D
-159D
-160D
-Teach B
-I9B
each D 10923men

 

[Kesselring]

CHI can divide into five:KMT Central Forces，Sichuan（四川 before 1938.1.20 or only give Chongqing to CHI in 1935，still keep independent），Shaanxi（陕西 before 1937.6），Guizhou（贵州 before 1935.5.3），Hunan（湖南 before 1937.9）

Shaanxi（陕西）with Yang Hucheng（杨虎城）
1936：
17 Route Army 60000men
-7C
--42D 124B（247R、248R、249R），126B（250R、251R、252R），Replacement R，4R
-38C
--17D 51B（100R、101R、102R），49B（97R、98R、99R），Replacement B（1R、2R、3R）
-Shaanxi Guard 1B（1R、2R、3R）
-Shaanxi Guard 2B（4R、5R、6R）
-Shaanxi Guard 3B（7R、8R、9R）
-Special 1R
-Special 2R
-Special 3R
-CR