Only Xenophobes can Purge in 1.5?

[The_Meme_Man]

I think it will tie into the new faction and political mechanics. They wanted to try and make it so that "removing political dessentors" wasn't the same as "removing the population of Bavaria" from the German Empire. Purging large swaths of your population would make no sense for gameplay reasons (if you have the choice to reeducate, why would you NOT reeducate, unless you wanted to waste 50 years regrowing the population).

And then, logically, it is only the Xenophobes who really hate aliens, while Authoritarians just like ruling stuff directly. After all, let's not equate "Authoritarian" to "violence" or "hate", or confuse "Authoritarian" with "Totalitarian". Authoritarians only care about power unless they are paired with another conducive ethos, and if purging is your game, Xenophobia is the most logical complement. A non-xenophobic Authoritarian state is going to spend more time "purging" powerful elite and journalists rather than entire pops, and how much of the population would you suspect "powerful elite and journalists" to be? After all, for humans, most of our history has been under Authoritarian states, and Authoritarianism is still very much prevalent in modern society.

If they pull off the new political mechanics, which they will show in a later dev diary, this might make this all very justified and actually kinda fun.

 

[Cri11e]

= 7:35 Wiz mentioning he has to be xenophob to eat pops.

 

[Connll]

To be honest, I do think 1- Fanatic Xenophobes would NOT want to taint their purity by consiming the flesh of inferior species, and 2- Authoritarian Regimes in OUR history, almost always had/made/invented an "enemy" to fulfill the role of the "other" to be feared/hated/destroyed, and genocides WERE a thing that happened semi-regularly in our history. The difference between a genocide perpetrated by a Xenophobe and an Authoritarian would probably be that the first one would be sincere in its belief/hatred/"need" to remove the xenos, while the second one, would probably be cynical.

 

[PirateJack]

The difference is between Hitler's Holocaust and Stalin's Famines.

 

[Madzai]

The difference is between Hitler's Holocaust and Stalin's Famines.

And where genocides performed by Colonialist Nations up until mid of XX Century comes in play? Or that massive famine British Empire caused during WW2 in Asia?

 

[Hardcore_gamer]

Is it true that you can't purge individual pops but only whole races? That sounds pretty lame. What if I want to enslave or destroy individual pops because they have unwanted ethos/ethics? Political purges are no longer possible?

 

[PirateJack]

And where genocides performed by Colonialist Nations up until mid of XX Century comes in play? Or that massive famine British Empire caused during WW2 in Asia?

All war crimes and all had diplomatic consequences, especially amongst the local populations.

Game-wise, I'd say that distance and military threat should have an effect on how a given empire views your genocidal tendencies. It's easy to ignore a fanatic purifier on the opposite side of the galaxy, especially when their military is a tenth the size of yours.

I'd argue that there should be heavy penalties for purgers who eliminate entire populations, but that it should only be majorly important to their neighbours, the victims/their kin in other nations, rivals and those empires with ethics that especially disprove of purging. A fanatic purifier or authoritarian empire a few empires over should have less problem with purging than your immediate neighbours or an egalitarian empire.

Is it true that you can't purge individual pops but only whole races? That sounds pretty lame. What if I want to enslave or destroy individual pops because they have unwanted ethos/ethics? Political purges are no longer possible?

I think that's supposed to be modelled by the faction system. There may be political purges going on, but they're not to be compared to the mass extermination that regular purging models.

 

[BlackUmbrellas]

Is it true that you can't purge individual pops but only whole races? That sounds pretty lame. What if I want to enslave or destroy individual pops because they have unwanted ethos/ethics? Political purges are no longer possible?

POP ethics can no longer be "suppressed" that way, because your empire will ALWAYS gravitate towards a representation of the attraction forces of all ethos on your empire. If you are Xenophobic but have 10% Xenophile attraction, you will ALWAYS have about 10% of your POPs be xenophiles (unless you remove the causative factor that is boosting the appeal of the Xenophile ethic).

Instead, you have to manage the faction that those 10% will contribute to.

 

[Foefaller]

Not possible. Having them as subjects is ok but having them in your planets - no. Your pops will descent into miserable happiness and they will be in constant 0% happiness. It won't even be possible for roleplay. They won't produce anything so you have no option but to purge them.

That's simply not true. As long as all xenos in your empire are enslaved there is no Xenophobia Malus for having them, even on planets where they outnumber your main pops:

As you can see, not only is there no Xenophobia malus despite being the minority, the alien's Charismatic modifier means that there is a happiness bonus for having them on the planet!

Slaving as a Xenophobe is a 100% viable thing to do, something that leaves diplomatic options open and doesn't have to lead to the entire galaxy hating you.

 

[Arnovitz]

So, am I understanding this right? Since purging can only be done on species groups and not individual pops in the new patch, the only reason an authoritarian empire would use purging or displacement on their founding race would be to completely remove them. Thus, their empire would come under the control of an entirely different species (or robots), yes? Very interesting.

 

[Derp]

So, am I understanding this right? Since purging can only be done on species groups and not individual pops in the new patch, the only reason an authoritarian empire would use purging or displacement on their founding race would be to completely remove them. Thus, their empire would come under the control of an entirely different species (or robots), yes? Very interesting.

I don't think it's possible to set your founding species to undesirable in 1.5

 

[Esurnir]

I don't think it's possible to set your founding species to undesirable in 1.5

Indeed, caste system or full citizenship only for your founding species. Hence not undesirable and not slaves (Caste system automatically enslave the right population on the right tile).

 

[smjjames]

Indeed, caste system or full citizenship only for your founding species. Hence not undesirable and not slaves (Caste system automatically enslave the right population on the right tile).

It should be moddable, hopefully.

 

[Pyramid_Head]

That's simply not true. As long as all xenos in your empire are enslaved there is no Xenophobia Malus for having them, even on planets where they outnumber your main pops:

Checked and you are right. Maybe it had to do with enslaved pops, or something, like, enslaved xenophobes with overwhelming alien overlords malus.

 

[The Founder]

Title.

While I am aware that there will be multiple ways to get rid of xenos and some other troublesome pops, I reason that, if I am going to forsake diplomacy due to commiting atrocities, then i´m going to do it in the fastest, most efficient way.

However, I saw a few posters mentioning that Authoritarins are no longer allowed to Purge xenos. Why? You can purge your own species, but not another?

Common misconception:
There is the declaration of a Species as "Undesireables" (that you want to get them out of your empire).
And there is the type of removal: Displacement (default), Deathcamps*, Food Processing*, Purge*

*Only avalible with the DLC.

Basically first you declare that you want them out. And then how seriously/quick/with how much production you want it done.

 

[The Founder]

Common misconception:
There is the declaration of a Species as "Undesireables" (that you want to get them out of your empire).
And there is the type of removal: Displacement (default), Deathcamps*, Food Processing*, Purge*

*Only avalible with the DLC.

Basically first you declare that you want them out. And then how seriously/quick/with how much production you want it done.

Small correction:
The Undesireable Types are:
Extermination (default and free; what we have now), Dispalcement, Force Labor (Deathcamps), (Food) Processing*, Neutering.
All have different tradeoffs for Productivity while being purged, speed of hte purge, Diplomacy penalty, etc.

*Different from the Lifestock class of slavery.

 

[Drakonn]

Is it true that you can't purge individual pops but only whole races? That sounds pretty lame. What if I want to enslave or destroy individual pops because they have unwanted ethos/ethics? Political purges are no longer possible?

With the amount a POP holds going into billions that's a little more extreme than simple political purges. I think that's why they've separated it. That and actually forcing a player to deal with it.

Indeed, caste system or full citizenship only for your founding species. Hence not undesirable and not slaves (Caste system automatically enslave the right population on the right tile).

If we can't select empire starting citizenship from Empire creation (and hoping we get the other options there) does that mean when we start the game with caste but want our founders to have full rights that we will get a happiness malus from them being slaves previously?

 

[The Founder]

Is it true that you can't purge individual pops but only whole races? That sounds pretty lame. What if I want to enslave or destroy individual pops because they have unwanted ethos/ethics? Political purges are no longer possible?

To quote Wiz:
"Purging one pop to get rid of a ethos would be the equivalent of nazi germany killing the entire population of Bavaria".
Purging and Slavery was never intended as a way to deal with Ethos issues. If anything, it was intended to cause ethos issues. Wich it will now do.

 

[Esurnir]

If we can't select empire starting citizenship from Empire creation (and hoping we get the other options there) does that mean when we start the game with caste but want our founders to have full rights that we will get a happiness malus from them being slaves previously?

Considering authoritarian is the successor for Collectivist, I don't think that's the case.

In fact from the stream with wiz, i could gather that the fact of -being enslaved- is what cause happiness penalty (I think 30% for chatel slavery) If moving pop around would leave the "was enslaved" penalty considering moving pop around would switch the slave status, that would quickly become unmanageable.

So I gather you won't get any penalty for switching to full citizenship.

However there might be a reason to keep caste system : It boost authoritarian ethics (well technically slavery boost egalitarian I guess )

 

[Drakonn]

Considering authoritarian is the successor for Collectivist, I don't think that's the case.

In fact from the stream with wiz, i could gather that the fact of -being enslaved- is what cause happiness penalty (I think 30% for chatel slavery) If moving pop around would leave the "was enslaved" penalty considering moving pop around would switch the slave status, that would quickly become unmanageable.

So I gather you won't get any penalty for switching to full citizenship.

However there might be a reason to keep caste system : It boost authoritarian ethics (well technically slavery boost egalitarian I guess )

I think I'm working off mechanics now because that's how it works as of now.

I do hope there's another way because for RP reasons I don't want to have to start my POPS in caste or leave them that way. Other species will be fine as they rightfully deserve. Switching them to Authoritarian because it fits them so well.