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Panzerslothen

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So your solution to the massive super omega leader dlc is "lol just fire your other leaders you dont need admirals or governors anyway"? If that's what it has come to something has gone terribly wrong in the design process.

Oh, no, I think you misunderstand me. What I'm saying is If people are so desperate to early game explore rush, then this is one tactic at their immediate disposal to be able to do so. The point I'm making is they don't HAVE to early game explore rush. Other choices are available! The design process is not there (and should not be there) purely to accomodate The Explorer's Club.

Also we literally had it all for years now, no one asked to suddenly be expected to run our star empires on 6-8 leaders (not even repeatables for leader cap afaik), it was just determined from on high that what wasn't broke needed fixing and here we are.

So you're saying that because it always thus, so it should always be?

All people can do is give feedback, which I am not sure why you seem opposed to. It's not even as if it's some longshot that changes will be reverted. We literally went through this exact same thing once already in the Stellaris life cycle. Leader caps -> feedback of fun stifled -> caps removed. Unfortunately it's come full circle and we're back to explaining why they are a bad idea (again bizarrely many of the reasons the devs themselves vocalized when they removed the cap the first time).

Yes, of course, and I'm not opposed to it at all. All I'm doing is giving feedback to the feedback. ;)

we're back to explaining why they are a

This is the kind of thing I'm trying to get at. This language implies a hard fact, universally agreed upon. That's not the case. My previous (VERY flippant) comment aside was made out of genuine surprise. There are playstyles other than cranking up Scientists to jet off and explore everything. I see that as a good thing. Hell, I'm used to taking at least 4 Scientists quickly myself. But there are other ways Leaders can now be used, and those seem to have merit. I agree with you that a balance can be found, but going back to the old way to accomodate one particular ability - which seems terribly min/maxy to me anyway - would accomodate only a particular segment of the playerbase at the expense of all those other potential styles.
 
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I personally think the following:

Yes paradox, i know you dont want to purge your generals, they are work you have done but... as long as there is not a meaningul combat rework which makes generals useful for anything, they are just a waste of space.

Admirals: Either we shouldnt need and admiral on each fleet, or players shouldnt have 20+ fleets, so either make admirals be able to command multiple fleets, or increase the maximun command limit so players dont have dozens of fleets laying around.

Governors: we have pushed for sector management, got sector management, and governos became planet only? i mean, i dont disagree with governors buffing a single planet, but can we please have them give 50% of those bonuses to the rest of the sector? so we have a capital planet in each sector which is where the governor live, and the rest still get a small buff
 
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Juboboman

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Oh, no, I think you misunderstand me. What I'm saying is If people are so desperate to early game explore rush, then this is one tactic at their immediate disposal to be able to do so. The point I'm making is they don't HAVE to early game explore rush. Other choices are available! The design process is not there (and should not be there) purely to accomodate The Explorer's Club.



So you're saying that because it always thus, so it should always be?



Yes, of course, and I'm not opposed to it at all. All I'm doing is giving feedback to the feedback. ;)



This is the kind of thing I'm trying to get at. This language implies a hard fact, universally agreed upon. That's not the case. My previous (VERY flippant) comment aside was made out of genuine surprise. There are playstyles other than cranking up Scientists to jet off and explore everything. I see that as a good thing. Hell, I'm used to taking at least 4 Scientists quickly myself. But there are other ways Leaders can now be used, and those seem to have merit. I agree with you that a balance can be found, but going back to the old way to accomodate one particular ability - which seems terribly min/maxy to me anyway - would accomodate only a particular segment of the playerbase at the expense of all those other potential styles.

Well in my opinion the issue goes well beyond not having enough early scientists to explore with (which to stress again though, no one asked for), but it extends throughout the entire game, and arguable gets worse the later in the game you get. You are supposed to want to have many governors, enough for all your sectors and specialized planets. What's the point in building governors if 95% of your worlds are "governed" by empty boxes that you can never fill? Aside from the obvious RP problems and what not, it's just anti-fun and boring imo. Then we get into Admirals, I touched on this already, but similar deal. If I have a bunch of fleets stationed at various corners of my empire, I sure would like for them all to have an admiral. The fact that before the "leader dlc" patch they all could and did, and after the "leader dlc" patch almost none of them do again shows that something has gone terribly wrong. I was certainly more attached to the pre patch random trait admiral that was in charge of my 5th fleet patrolling my outter rim sector than I am to the empty black box currently running the fleet. And you can forget about generals. Nice to have all these science worlds with no research assist possible. I could go on and on.

We went from having a bunch of random trait leaders that at least we could RP backstories to in our own head to make us care about them to literally nothing - empty black boxes. I don't see how letting people fill those black boxes with leaders again hurts anyone elses playstyle, especially with automation so people that don't want to bother leveling up those leaders don't have to.
 
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Panzerslothen

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Well in my opinion the issue goes well beyond not having enough early scientists to explore with (which to stress again though, no one asked for)

No one asked for the Council. No one asked for Leader Trait Picking, Veteran Traits, Destiny Traits, Agendas, or Renowned and Legendary Paragons either, but we've got them... the times change and we change with them.

but it extends throughout the entire game, and arguable gets worse the later in the game you get. You are supposed to want to have many governors, enough for all your sectors and specialized planets. What's the point in building governors if 95% of your worlds are "governed" by empty boxes that you can never fill? Aside from the obvious RP problems and what not, it's just anti-fun and boring imo.

That's a fair point, something I haven't really considered and don't have a view on. More consideration needed, maybe?!

Then we get into Admirals, I touched on this already, but similar deal. If I have a bunch of fleets stationed at various corners of my empire, I sure would like for them all to have an admiral. The fact that before the "leader dlc" patch they all could and did, and after the "leader dlc" patch almost none of them do again shows that something has gone terribly wrong. I was certainly more attached to the pre patch random trait admiral that was in charge of my 5th fleet patrolling my outter rim sector than I am to the empty black box currently running the fleet. And you can forget about generals. Nice to have all these science worlds with no research assist possible. I could go on and on.

We went from having a bunch of random trait leaders that at least we could RP backstories to in our own head to make us care about them to literally nothing - empty black boxes. I don't see how letting people fill those black boxes with leaders again hurts anyone elses playstyle, especially with automation so people that don't want to bother leveling up those leaders don't have to.

The underlying changes you're getting at here go to the the crux of the 'Meaningful Choices' ethos, so I think presenting it as something having "gone terribly wrong" is black and white language presentation and I can't get behind it. That's because I think that the new trait options, and particularly the ability to CHOOSE those traits, more than makes up for the reduced Leader pool. Of course, that is only my opinion. I'm sure some fine-testing can be done and an appropriate balance be found. Maybe mostly around Governors.

It's a shame you don't like the changes and feel less connected with your Leaders now. I feel the opposite. I think we'll have to agree to disagree.
 
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Juboboman

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No one asked for the Council. No one asked for Leader Trait Picking, Veteran Traits, Destiny Traits, Agendas, or Renowned and Legendary Paragons either, but we've got them... the times change and we change with them.



That's a fair point, something I haven't really considered and don't have a view on. More consideration needed, maybe?!



The underlying changes you're getting at here go to the the crux of the 'Meaningful Choices' ethos, so I think presenting it as something having "gone terribly wrong" is black and white language presentation and I can't get behind it. That's because I think that the new trait options, and particularly the ability to CHOOSE those traits, more than makes up for the reduced Leader pool. Of course, that is only my opinion. I'm sure some fine-testing can be done and an appropriate balance be found. Maybe mostly around Governors.

It's a shame you don't like the changes and feel less connected with your Leaders now. I feel the opposite. I think we'll have to agree to disagree.

Yeah I get that it's all down to preference, there's nothing wrong with liking the new way. But for me at least the fact that my 1st fleet and maybe even 2nd fleet have awesome great leaders that I care about and fell in love with doesn't make up for the fact that the 3rd-8th fleets have nothing. It feels like what could have been, I want them all to be as fun. I do also understand that currently the game is balanced around fewer leaders which is why I'm hesitant to just download a mod that ups the cap to 50 or something.

I think one possible solution is to significantly ease the soft cap on leaders, but then transfer that cap over to the ethics/traits or whatever bonuses that buff by # of leaders you have. So whereas now say there is a bonus that gives 2% of whatever (say ship fire rate in this example) per admiral, that changes to "gives 2% ship fire rate per admiral (maximum of 10%)" That way people that like having fewer leaders dont feel like they are falling behind because people with 25+ are stacking those op bonuses, but people that just want to flesh out their empire with leaders to make it funner and more alive can do so as well, even if the efficiency of that choice falls off a cliff once you hit the bonus cap. As it stands now the soft cap is so hard that there is not even an option to just keep brute forcing through it. Once you double your cap all your leaders get 0 xp and there is nothing you can do about it.
 
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An idea: the first slot for each class of Leader comes 'free' in terms of slots. You 'pay' for them thereafter.
How might that work out?
That just shoves the problem 4 leaders away, but doesnt solve the root cause which is the game wants you to have a leader for each fleet, leader for each important planet and around 1-4 science ships each with a leader
 
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That just shoves the problem 4 leaders away, but doesnt solve the root cause which is the game wants you to have a leader for each fleet, leader for each important planet and around 1-4 science ships each with a leader
The game allows you to have a leader on each fleet and each planet.
The game also allows you to not have a leader on each fleet and each planet.

It certainly doesn't want or demand either, that's the 3.7 player speaking.
 
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I wish they would add +1 limit at galaxy size 600, +2 at 800 and +3 at 1000.
 
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Another speculation is that it's about preventing snowballing. The idea is that if you have a tiny number of planets, your "demand" for leaders is below the limit and you can afford to staff each planet with a leader, maybe 2 for assist research.

The problem is that "arbitrary limits" NEVER prevent snowballing. They only slow it. And I don't know about you, but I'd rather have actual catch-up mechanics that reward you for being "behind" than "A slower death".

I think this is the wrong framing. For a very long time now, Stellaris has made no meaningful attempt to reward players who confine themselves to a small number of total colonies. Yes, there's empire size from colonies/systems, but that's a relatively trivial expense for most empires, and I suspect deliberately so.

Instead, what's encouraged is herding of pops. The big emphasis has been on having a small number of *core* colonies. These are the colonies where most of your pops live, where most of the resources are produced (as far as districts and building slots allow), and where you invest heavily in infrastructure, whether that's Ecumenopolis, orbital ring or planetary ascension. You can have other colonies but they are mainly pop farms, or defensive outposts to buffer your core, or surplus colonies that are left to subjects; they will never be efficient at most resource production, so you try not to invest resources in them that are scarce at an empire level. Basically, if we ignore vassal swarms for the moment, empires end up looking more and more like Australia, a continent where half the population lives in three cities, and even among the other half, most still live in cities; farmers and miners are an important part of the economy but a small minority of the actual workforce (for instance the country produces enough food for around 75 million people, but only has about 150,000 farmers).

The most important thing though is that you build up your core colonies to have a lot of pops; since you won't get those pops in a timely manner by "going tall" and staying inside your core area, you're encouraged to go out and harvest population from a larger number of colonies. This is how the game pushes you into "wide" play. (The difference with Australia here is that in Stellaris, you can't get large amounts of immigration from outside your territory, and the fringe colonies will collectively spawn a lot more pops than "space Melbourne" because the game's model of population growth is much more based on number of colonies than reproduction of an existing population.)

Leader cap is just another plank added to this model. The devs have effectively declared a design intention that most colonies will have no governor. You choose a few planets to be "core" and have a governor (and/or scientist in orbit, who is basically a special type of assistant governor), and maybe you try to make those choices in a way to maximize a kind of hinterland bonus from governors in the sector.

Where the model falls down I think is with subjects, because there's no cap on the number of subjects you can have (at least, no cap that can't be eliminated at the cost of 1AP), and all the factors that favour a few core colonies in your own empire, also favour having many small vassals over a few large ones (plus some additional factors on top, like trade agreements, holding limit, and per-subject bonuses from Scholariums and Bulwarks). Governors are effectively added to this: every micro-vassal planet can have a governor, no problem, even if your vassals collectively own hundreds of colonies, because they don't use *your* leader cap. Vassal swarms are effectively anti-"meaningful choice", and the more the rest of the game tries to go in a "quality over quantity" direction, the more vassal swarms will distort and undermine this idea.
 
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CBR JGWRR

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The changes in reality, have actually made Leaders worse than before. I mean, sure the few you can get are nice, but you now have to work on the basis that you aren't going to have Leaders for the overwhelming majority of the times you would want one.

--------

As someone who very much cares about roleplay value, Leaders before the rework were great. For roleplay value, I'd like to have Sector Governors and Planetary Governors, Sector fleets with an Admiral, a General if situationally useful and a Scientist on assisting research for every world with labs. Post-rework, I can now have the Planetary Governors. An endgame civilisation for me could legit end up with a hundred Leaders, but now a rework comes along that could add so much more to the roleplay value, especially for someone like me who cares about the Leaders as more than just modifiers with pictures, manages to nuke the roleplay value; not just a little bit of testing either, but it is a full on Base Delta Zero.

Back when they were Energy Credit cost and upkeep, that was no problem at all; who cares about several hundred Energy Credits in the mid to late game? Heck, even in the early game it was sustainable. When they made them Unity upkeep, it was expensive - extremely suboptimal for how much more Pops you were spending on upkeep - but you could do it.

Now?

You just can't do that unless you want to have them stay at whatever level they were when recruited. (going over the Leader cap as suggested is not a solution, because it KILLS their experience gain as well as having immense upkeep increases, which makes the rework pointless because you'll never see the Leaders grow)

Generals are now a complete waste of time. I mean, before they were a waste of time because of the mechanics of course, but they were worth keeping for roleplay value. Now? It's a wasted slot.

Governors too have now joined that list; even micro-hopping them around just isn't worth it. I love the idea of having Sector and Planetary Governors, it's what I have wanted right from the start. But I can't do that because Scientists and an absolute minimum of one Admiral to do fleet hopping with are Mission-Critical. And five scientists isn't enough at ANY stage of the game.

Admirals? You can afford to spare A slot for an Admiral, simply because early game space warfare can have the right admiral tip the balance. But late game, they join Generals and Governors as not worth a Leader slot as repeatables mean the amount of firepower gained is potentially less than sacking them and putting a Scientist on assisting research.

Scientists lose the most of course, simply because of their essentiality meaning that even non-roleplay players had dozens of them. You had three Scientists for researching (unless you were me, because I liked to have one for each field of research to feel like lead researcher roles, as well as the three specific research scientist positions) Scientists for assisting research (and on boosting cloaking detection, if you were really, really keen) Scientists for digsites, Scientists for surveying... That's completely gone.

So, get a mod that puts the Leader cap up at something actually sensible, and enjoy the excellent aspects of the rework.
 
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NoXeno

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Tech, building, force limit, and job should give respective leader limit. Spam leader every where is not great, but the maximum of all leaders is only about a dozen leader is hilarious. It is all traditions and ascensions give.

A sector governor and several key worlds governors are fun to manage, it can based on capital buildings size and number.
Late game fleets and armies needs more leaders, force limit and solider jobs should bring up the limit.
Scientist should be available for early explore and passive assist later. Just tech?
 
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Ryika

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I feel like the main issue is science ships requiring scientists for everything. Allow for exploration and survey without a scientist, and I think I'm fine with the leader cap.

Would even have some other positive effects, such as giving that anomaly research trait more use if you have a single scientist that you send around, doing anomalies.
 
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Azar

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I am not liking the leader limit

Currently Im not liking that my science ships need to be crewed by leaders. In other words: that the science ships do absolutely nothing without a leader attached.

Perhaps the devs should allow us to create a fleet of science ships which could function separately (and the cap of which depends on the scientist leader or the councilor) and the leader could apply its bonuses to all ships in the fleet.
 
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unmerged(350868)

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I guess maybe use scientists for anomalies, and not surveys.

Didnt realise the governor only manages a planet now...

So I have to ask... What is the point of a sector now?


As for being gamey... At least its not as bad as the Xcom remake...

" Commander...the aliens have attacked New York, London and Paris... You are humanity's last line of defence. Which city will you defend?

Cant I defend them all?

No, you only have one transport and 4 soldiers.

I thought I was our last hope... Vigilo Confido. Oh well... Cant the military in each country help out... they must have access to tanks and planes and an army larger than 4?

No... only your 4 men can save the world.

But just a third of it? And these... "men"... They seem to be really bad at shooting. And they panic as soon as someone starts shooting at them. Its almost as if they are not top level military operators, and are in fact some guy that walked in off the street because they liked that we had an underground pub.

Good luck, Commander

Oh... well... I think we can all agree... Paris has to go..."
 
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A2ch0n

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Currently Im not liking that my science ships need to be crewed by leaders.
The only thing i dislike the the now VERY annoying capture mechanic at first contact. I made three test runs for different empires and everytime i lost 2-3 Scientists early on because far too many empires prefer to nab them. That needs a fix asap.
 
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WoodenP

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Separate caps for each leader type is best to resolve this. And the studio can have fun making it so that differently themed Techs/traditions/civics can raise specific caps as well.

(My big fear from this is they're going to use it as an excuse to remove generals on a long gradual path to dismantling ground combat. Imagine it's now 4.1: "Well generals sucked since 3.8 anyway, I never picked them, good riddance" is what they are hoping we will say.)
 

Harrymonkey

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Would a sensible answer be to have the leader capacity work in the same way as naval capacity? So at game start you have say 10 leader capacity (expandable by tech/structures) and all level 1 leaders cost 1 capacity, level 2 leaders cost 2, level 3 costs 4, level 4 costs 8 etc. With the new selectable traits, level up could be delayed until the new trait is selected, so you could keep leaders at a lower level until you have capacity for their new level. The overlimit penalties can still apply as current for those who want to push the boundaries.
 
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