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Y'all aren't wrong if we are coming at this with the idea of removing that cap and returning the game pace to how it was before this patch. But it seems to me (could be wrong) like the design intention here is using these limits purposefully to slow that exploration down, so I don't think that's happening. My suggestions are minor but still fit within that design. Does having an admiral explore instead of a third scientist work as well / quickly as before the patch? No. But it may help push it back slightly toward that direction and make it feel a little better. Letting that fleet explore still gets you that important early vision and contacts, and lets you prioritize areas to survey.
Why would I want exploration to be slowed down? I routinely get to mid-game at 2300 on a 1,000-star galaxy with 12-15 AI spawns and see dozens, if not hundreds, of unexplored systems - and that's with me taking Discovery traditions and supporting seven (or more!) science ships focused on surveying, anomalies, precursors, and excavation.

If Paradox thinks people are exploring the galaxy too quickly, Paradox is simply wrong. If Paradox wants to balance their game only for people who play 400-star galaxies with 25 AI spawns, they're making a huge mistake.
 
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CBR JGWRR

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It's narratively incoherent to be told that there are only six people - total - in my FTL-capable civilization of billions of diverse pops who are talented enough to be any one of an admiral, an archaeologist, an explorer, a researcher, a general, or a politician.

I play the Broken Shackles origin (a load of fun! great DLC!) as fanatic egalitarian xenophiles (the Democratic Egalitarian Republic of People - which invariably founds the Democratic Order of Planets, natch) and it is in no way "narratively satisfying" for Paradox to apply an arbitrary cap on the number of leaders the Derps can support. My nation of revolted former slaves is literally about everyone being equal, so why is the narrative forcing them to have a tiny, elite group of leaders?
Very much this. Broken Shackles especially really suffers for the Leader Cap, as subject to primitives setting you can have more starting races than Leaders to represent them; it's absolutely jarring for that origin.
 
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Archael90

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I am not liking the leader limit

At the start of the game I can only recruit 3 sceintists for research ships. I usually play on a huge galaxy with 5-6 ai civs. Its gonna slow the exploration stage massively for me. I usually have 10-12 ships out there by midgame. only 3 to explore means I have none spare to do anomalies and dig sites.

To help me plan, does anyone have any tips on this, and answwer the question have below...

1. Does not having an admiral for each fleet mean a massive drop in fleet strength in the end game?

2. Can you still hire admirals and generals from the mercenaries?

3. How many leaders can you expect to have mid/late game?

4. I usually have 15-20+ sectors... Does this mean that I will not be having a governor in each one?

Cheers!
TBH. I love this change. I hate cheesingm and i never saw having more than 5 science ships a good for the roleplay, sometimes i used only 3. Also, slowing the pace of the game is extremally good for its health, so moving first contact further in time is also beneficial (i also play on 1000 galaxies).
Also, less leaders means more focus - science, military or economy. You cannot have leader for everything, You need to choose. Choices, if meaningfull, are good
 
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They will be getting reworked in 3.9 at least. The changes to trust mechanics got pushed from 3.8.
Honestly, I like vassals personally. But right now it's a bit silly. Vassals hardly ever rebel even when unhappy and massively overtaxed. The biggest problem with them is that BOTH the player and Ai get the Ai difficulty bonuses on taxing them. It should only ever pay out the base income to Overlords no matter if that Overlord is Ai or a Player.
 

jayparadoritox

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It's narratively incoherent to be told that there are only six people - total - in my FTL-capable civilization of billions of diverse pops who are talented enough to be any one of an admiral, an archaeologist, an explorer, a researcher, a general, or a politician.

I play the Broken Shackles origin (a load of fun! great DLC!) as fanatic egalitarian xenophiles (the Democratic Egalitarian Republic of People - which invariably founds the Democratic Order of Planets, natch) and it is in no way "narratively satisfying" for Paradox to apply an arbitrary cap on the number of leaders the Derps can support. My nation of revolted former slaves is literally about everyone being equal, so why is the narrative forcing them to have a tiny, elite group of leaders?

I feel this a lot too. I really dislike the idea of a tiny cadre of elite characters being the only ones that matter in a galaxy of billions. It doesn't really work. Little too Star Wars for me.

I get that the devs were probably thinking, "Yes it's a galaxy of billions/trillions, but we are just recalibrating the semantics of 'leaders' to refer to truly insane beings like the God-Emperor in 40k" (or Palpatine being all of the Sith lmao).

But I think it is to deny some of the best role-playing possibilities Stellaris once had; the Star Trek fantasies of explorers and crews who still have lots to learn or could easily die out on a mission. I much prefer the humanity of that to the idea of God-Emperor-esque leaders representing the worth of trillions.

Save that stuff for the Paragons! I'm all for that particular fantasy so long as it exists independently from normal leaders.
 
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Arxlite

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I took a look myself, and half of the positive reviews are mentioning that leader cap was a mistake! I'm starting to feel that only a slim minority likes the change.
I am a Stellaris player since 1.0 release (+-2000 hours) and I must say that it's the first time I complaint about a change on this game. And you know what ? I'm perfectly fine with the idea of saying that a fleet/planet/army, by default, has no leader attached, and that we have to choose where we want to benefit from their greater advantages.

But the main problem with this new paradigm is that scientists are still essential to science vessels for even the most basic missions. Whereas a fleet without an admiral, an army without a general, or a planet without a governor can do anything they did with a leader. As a result, that means that you always start your games with significantly more scientists than any other leader, regardless of the type of empire you play.

And that's the main problem with the current leader cap. Give exploration ships the ability to at least explore and only 'find' anomalies without a scientist, and you fix a lot of issues with the current leader cap.

As it is now, it doesn't really slow down exploration in the early game too, because no player want to shoot themselves in the foot by limiting their early exploration to one scientist, even if they have an empire based on admirals/governors/generals .
 
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julianjaynes222

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I've never posted on the forum before but I've got 500+ hrs in Stellaris and made an account just to add my voice to the chorus of disapproval of the new static leader cap.

I think it's a very roughshod system to achieve what the devs intended and in practice achieves the opposite. In the very first game I played with the new DLC, I realized I didn't even need an admiral for Minister of Defense, since the early game exploration was so peaceful. So I fired his ass and recruited another scientist. But what kind of empire doesn't have a Minister of Defense? In reality, there would never be a trade-off between firing your top military staff and hiring more scientific leaders. Now instead of roleplaying a game, I'm just gaming the system.

The basically static leader cap is just mind-boggling from any kind of roleplay perspective, which defeats the purpose of the leader system to let you roleplay. What, in roleplay terms, is this cap supposed to represent? Why would my leaders become dumber and less able to gain experience if there are too many of them? Why does this cap only increase with random traditions and technologies? Why do I need societal traditions and scientific research to know how to employ more leaders?

Unity costs make sense, as the roleplay idea is that too many ambitious and powerful leaders can become a political problem as they compete with each other and so on. What makes sense to me from a first principles perspective is that leader cap increases with empire size or pops or something similar that represents the size of your empire, the size of the pie that ambitious leaders can influence, while going over the cap costs unity as they begin to step on each other's toes. There's no reason the cap should be static unless you research specific technologies or take specific traditions, nor that your leaders become dumber and less effective if there are too many of them. IIRC we paid leaders with energy before, which also made sense, because ambitious people want to get paid. But this new system is just bizarre.

That aside, there is no way to paper over the extremely conflicting leader design philosophies in the game right now. I can mod the leader cap, but that doesn't really solve the core problem, which is that the game itself can't decide wtf leaders are and what they are supposed to do. As others have pointed out, hiring generals now is basically punishing yourself. Meanwhile, we still have these random envoys in the game, who still get portraits and names. Then, we've got leaders who simultaneously sit on the high council benefiting the whole empire with their skillz and knowledge, yet somehow they are also in the field excavating archaeological sites or whatever. A science ship is unable to survey a planet without a figure of such incredible talent and stature leading it. We have a hard leader cap, but the game taunts you endlessly with empty UI boxes for your dozens of fleets, systems, and so on.

Moreover, even the new DLC can't decide what leaders are supposed to be. Are they these epic heroes who stand out in history or regular competent people who must fill important positions? If ordinary leaders are epic heroes and so we can't expect every sector, fleet, and council position to have one, then why did we also get 2-3 new tiers of epic leaders via destiny traits, renowned paragons, and even legendary paragons. Meanwhile, the freakin XP and leveling system seems to indicate that leaders are in fact meant to fill positions, and the epic heroes are obviously only the ones who reach that stature through their careers, trait gains, XP gains, etc.

In the end, none of this meshes together. It's a cacophony of conflicting design choices. I don't know what the solution is, but this thread has a dozen smart ideas that could be part of the solution. Someone needs to take a long hard look at this and deeply rebalance this.

My personal preference would be a game with tons of leaders, like we had before, that allows the really legendary ones to make themselves known *EMERGENTLY* through doing things, not because the game tells me they are or hardcaps me to just a few who must necessarily be important since I can't pick any more of them. We have a growing cap that punishes you in a roleplay-coherent way, like unity or some other political factor, not leader XP gain. Empty UI boxes are telling you that you are being cheap with unity, not taunting you. This is literally the system we had a few weeks ago and it was great.

You know what would be really cool? If going over the leader cap created a small risk of a certain leader defecting and instigating a rebellion on one of your worlds to become independent. You could even tie it to leaders who are from non-capital worlds. I dunno man. Just give us something creative and that makes sense.
 
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Calvax

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Moreover, even the new DLC can't decide what leaders are supposed to be. Are they these epic heroes who stand out in history or regular competent people who must fill important positions?

I think this is a good point. I and others have brought up that the UI still follows the old logic of presenting leaders as competent people you want filling regular positions. It feels strange that the game is now trying to operate with the assumption that even late game empires aren't going to have governors for all sectors, despite there being big blank slots for each one (and now each planet).

One idea I saw posted on reddit is that the cap should only apply to veterans. That sounds like quite a change that I don't expect the devs to make even if they liked it (at least not quickly) but it does seem to cut to the core of the issue. Having admirals in each fleet and governors in each sector is fun and immersive. But if the new traits are too strong for that many leaders then limit how many leaders we get that are exceptional.
 
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julianjaynes222

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Although I said I wouldn't speculate, maybe introducing a new lower tier of default leaders, without traits or levelling e.g. literally on the level of envoys, would solve this. So when you build a science ship, or a fleet, or have a sector, it is automatically assigned an envoy-tier leader without traits or bonuses. When the leader pool refreshes, IT PICKS LEADERS FROM THIS POOL of envoy-tier leaders, and you get to choose which ones have ascended from being position-fillers to true leaders with reputations.

Can I tag devs on here? lol. Read this idea, devs!
 

Offe

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Although I said I wouldn't speculate, maybe introducing a new lower tier of default leaders, without traits or levelling e.g. literally on the level of envoys, would solve this. So when you build a science ship, or a fleet, or have a sector, it is automatically assigned an envoy-tier leader without traits or bonuses. When the leader pool refreshes, IT PICKS LEADERS FROM THIS POOL of envoy-tier leaders, and you get to choose which ones have ascended from being position-fillers to true leaders with reputations.

Can I tag devs on here? lol. Read this idea, devs!
This idea was considered several times during development but it comes with a package of other problems and limitations and isn't so entirely straightforward as it would seem at first glance
 
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julianjaynes222

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This idea was considered several times during development but it comes with a package of other problems and limitations and isn't so entirely straightforward as it would seem at first glance
Thanks for the response! Glad devs are reading these threads. Obviously I take your word for it, but I hope devs can then figure out some other kind of solution. As a player I can just offer my feedback. There's not any particular mechanic or system or whatever that I insist on, I think there are many possible paths with the ideas in these threads, but I think the goal of a cohesive, balanced, and fun leader system has not been reached, mainly on the point of cohesion.
 
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Calvax

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This idea was considered several times during development but it comes with a package of other problems and limitations and isn't so entirely straightforward as it would seem at first glance

Thanks for commenting Offe. Could you expand a bit on what some of those problems might be? We were told in the hotfix thread that the decision to keep big silhouettes in the UI was a heated topic. That similarly has a seemingly straight forward solution of removing/minimising that icon (it's definitely not fun for the UI to make the player feel their fleets, planets, and sectors are lacking). I'd be interested to know what problems the devs have identified in removing that.
 

Offe

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Thanks for commenting Offe. Could you expand a bit on what some of those problems might be? We were told in the hotfix thread that the decision to keep big silhouettes in the UI was a heated topic. That similarly has a seemingly straight forward solution of removing/minimising that icon (it's definitely not fun for the UI to make the player feel their fleets, planets, and sectors are lacking). I'd be interested to know what problems the devs have identified in removing that.
Well, not sure how to summarize 1+ years worth of discussions into one short posts but basically there are a lot of trade offs that don't have clear easy solutions.

Here there is a trade off UI vice between clearly showing that you CAN assign a leader here, and at the same time it should feel like you don't HAVE to do it. Sure you can make the icon smaller or hide it but then it is much harder for new players to find it.

Same sort of arguments for having token level 0 leaders on every single spot, how to clearly show that this leader isnt really a real leader and that you can assign someone else here to give actual good buffs without making it exactly the same where you feel like you HAVE to assign someone there? Also when you would remove a leader from a spot like unassigning an admiral, instantly someone else would appear there would probably make it confusing.

Also the gray zone for these token leader becomes problematic right away where for example you assign a governor to a planet where previously the level 0 leader "Steve" used to be, but then you change your mind and remove your governor, how do you then make "Steve" reappear on that planet instead of someone else? Similarly if split and merge a fleet with it self new Admirals would appear every time.

The list goes on and these are just things that still are weird with that system, completely disregarding how long it would take to make and how many side effects and new bugs it would cause

I am not a UX designer so I can't cover everything, but yes this topic was probably the most discussed through the entire development.
 
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Thanks for explaining. I completely get how token leaders could cause issues, particularly if they pop up the moment you remove a proper leader.

For the icon being hidden for new players I'm sure there's a solution to that that isn't as off putting as what we have, but good to know it's been under and still is under discussion. I hope that can be changed at some point.
 

julianjaynes222

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Well, not sure how to summarize 1+ years worth of discussions into one short posts but basically there are a lot of trade offs that don't have clear easy solutions.

Here there is a trade off UI vice between clearly showing that you CAN assign a leader here, and at the same time it should feel like you don't HAVE to do it. Sure you can make the icon smaller or hide it but then it is much harder for new players to find it.

Same sort of arguments for having token level 0 leaders on every single spot, how to clearly show that this leader isnt really a real leader and that you can assign someone else here to give actual good buffs without making it exactly the same where you feel like you HAVE to assign someone there? Also when you would remove a leader from a spot like unassigning an admiral, instantly someone else would appear there would probably make it confusing.

Also the gray zone for these token leader becomes problematic right away where for example you assign a governor to a planet where previously the level 0 leader "Steve" used to be, but then you change your mind and remove your governor, how do you then make "Steve" reappear on that planet instead of someone else? Similarly if split and merge a fleet with it self new Admirals would appear every time.

The list goes on and these are just things that still are weird with that system, completely disregarding how long it would take to make and how many side effects and new bugs it would cause

I am not a UX designer so I can't cover everything, but yes this topic was probably the most discussed through the entire development.
This all makes sense. Thanks for sharing! It gives insight into what kinds of systems are more reasonable to expect and which are not. If leaders are going to stay leaderlike, then it seems the solution needs to include more of them. I'm not going to repeat all the various ideas, but I get the sense devs want leaders to support a tall playstyle, rather than wide. Perhaps tying leader cap to some tall progression like capital building tiers? Or maybe council leaders shouldn't count against leader cap, to incentivize having a full council, as any empire would always have? Just giving us more options to increase leader cap would go a long way.

I should note that I overall love the new DLC and the new leader mechanics that have been introduced, which is of course why I bought it. This is probably my favorite Stellaris expansion ever. But I think the potential that these new systems have introduced are far greater than where the implementation is right now and it would suck for that potential to stay unrealized.

I also want to say that, perhaps unlike many players, I actually like the idea of Generals being leaders, and I'm already having fun hiring generals to be my "Chief of Secret Police" on the council. Very good RP. But generals should be developed somehow and given some more things to do so that they are mechanically useful as well. Maybe this means also giving armies more things to do. I like the idea of Generals doubling as spy/intelligence figures, since in real life military intelligence is always a big part of intelligence. Maybe Generals should be the ones assisting cloaking detection, rather than scientists, who already have so many tasks. It would also be cool to be able to use generals/armies in more ways for internal stability.

To go a bit further with my blue-sky thinking: I don't know where the fabled "Internal Politics DLC" sits, but from my perspective the new leader systems are very plausibly halfway to internal politics already. It would be very cool if the punishments for going over leader cap were, for example, situations firing on the theme of leaders going rogue in various ways. For example, a leader begins siphoning off consumer goods for their own private use. Or a leader starts instigating a planetary rebellion. Or two leaders get into a feud and end up in a duel, killing one of them. I feel like internal politics based on leaders, with their own stories and personalities that arise emergently, would be way cooler than internal politics based on abstract ethics and factions percentages or whatever. The factions and ethics could be designed so as to support or impede the political power of certain leaders. Anyway, just some food for thought.
 
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This idea was considered several times during development but it comes with a package of other problems and limitations and isn't so entirely straightforward as it would seem at first glance

Thank you for the answer. Now, it is not changes to the UI that will solve the main problem with the leader cap, and which is that some leaders are mandatory (scientists) and the others are not.

Please consider the possibility of being able to survey and find anomalies without a scientist in science vessels. I think you wanted the leader cap to be a limitation to optimization, not a limitation to core game mechanics.
 
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Here there is a trade off UI vice between clearly showing that you CAN assign a leader here, and at the same time it should feel like you don't HAVE to do it. Sure you can make the icon smaller or hide it but then it is much harder for new players to find it.

I'm just a guy with the Tisms but, right now it is REALLY BOTHERING ME that there is this ghostly hollow spot in the UI that just BEGS me to put a leader there, but due to the cap I can't. And from looking at the forums, it does feel either a lot of us have the tisms, or its really bothering em.

Same sort of arguments for having token level 0 leaders on every single spot, how to clearly show that this leader isnt really a real leader and that you can assign someone else here to give actual good buffs without making it exactly the same where you feel like you HAVE to assign someone there? Also when you would remove a leader from a spot like unassigning an admiral, instantly someone else would appear there would probably make it confusing.

And I am probably way out of my league when I say this as a suggestion, but surely you could use a system like this with a mechanism that allows you to promote leaders from generic planetary governor, to a Sector Head, and from some Space Cadet, to a General or an Admiral? This would also act as a kind of leader pool for you to pick from.

now I admit, I'm unsure how you'd tie Scientists to this but hey. its just a random thought I had :D

And if you fire Steve, let him be fired, its your fault for firing Steve. He'll probably end up working in the Slave mines anyways for being so bad at his job .
 
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Why would I want exploration to be slowed down? I routinely get to mid-game at 2300 on a 1,000-star galaxy with 12-15 AI spawns and see dozens, if not hundreds, of unexplored systems - and that's with me taking Discovery traditions and supporting seven (or more!) science ships focused on surveying, anomalies, precursors, and excavation.

If Paradox thinks people are exploring the galaxy too quickly, Paradox is simply wrong. If Paradox wants to balance their game only for people who play 400-star galaxies with 25 AI spawns, they're making a huge mistake.
Because if you don't slow it down, the majority of the exploration is done by 2225, and all of it is done by 2240.

The status quo in every game I played in 3.7 was to hire two scientists immediately then slowly acquire 10 total surveyors as ones with good traits appear. Expect the GA AI, on that particular random spot of the graph where you met them, to have 3 science ships surveying in parallel. If they're penned in, expect their full fleet of 8 or so (long before you get to that many).

All systems will surveyed by someone (no more anomalies) by 2240, unless you manage to claim a choke point and keep the AI out or get lucky and there's a big chunk of space that's accessible only via jump drive/wormhole because of a FE or marauder blocking the path in.

Slowing it down helps. A better solution, maybe, would be to have regions open up (like L Gates, but bigger, and less easily chokepointed) so that there's more opportunity for exploration and expansion.
 
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You could name every "Steve" "Administrator" or something i.e. not give him any name, that way there would be no need to make sure that the same Steve reappears, because no one would notice.
Heck, you could even just replace the outline of a head that currently exists with Generic Steve with some gray filter and a large 0 in place of leader level to indicate that Steve does not provide any bonuses. I.e. make Steve a fixed part of the GUI.
 
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Frankly, this idea of nerfing Scientists is not a solution - at a systems level, that is stacking another bad decision as a band-aid to sort out symptoms presented because of the previous bad decision, and only slightly less bad than just going "You know what, lets just abandon Leaders entirely".

----

The best compromise if we absolutely do have to have this "segregation of the elite" situation where we are only allowing the top 15 or so people in a civilisation of tens of billions* to stand out (just recognising this is enough to show the inherent flaws in the system of course) is to make the Leader Cap be for Leaders a player specifically chooses to say "I specifically want to have this Leader, out of the hundreds of thousands of suitable candidates in my civilisation, to be noteworthy", with an automated placement feature that can pick for players who don't care about Leaders, players who want an emergent dynamic about who the most important Leaders are, or the AI.

And then put back the 3.7 Leaders as the uncapped ones.

* To start with at least; fully developed Ringworlds could house quadrillions of people on their own, which further expresses the flaw in the system.
 
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