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I am not liking the leader limit

At the start of the game I can only recruit 3 sceintists for research ships. I usually play on a huge galaxy with 5-6 ai civs. Its gonna slow the exploration stage massively for me. I usually have 10-12 ships out there by midgame. only 3 to explore means I have none spare to do anomalies and dig sites.

To help me plan, does anyone have any tips on this, and answwer the question have below...

1. Does not having an admiral for each fleet mean a massive drop in fleet strength in the end game?

2. Can you still hire admirals and generals from the mercenaries?

3. How many leaders can you expect to have mid/late game?

4. I usually have 15-20+ sectors... Does this mean that I will not be having a governor in each one?

Cheers!
 
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The limit does feel too low. One of the paragons asked to join me and I had to turn them away because they were a general. What was I going to do with a general? Even finding space for admirals feels pretty tough since you presumably want to be staffing science ships early on.

If we're going to have so few, I think they should have kept the sector level governors, removed fleet command limits (fewer, larger fleets), and allowed science ships to be unmanned at reduced efficiency. As is, a late game empire is going to have a lot of vacancies.

With 4 council positions, there's barely enough space to have an "in training" backup for each position, much less guys available to specialize into field work.
 
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-- 1. Does not having an admiral for each fleet mean a massive drop in fleet strength in the end game?

You don't have to worry about this really. Since the Leaders retire just about the time their bonuses are becoming strong, you won't be out anything big for not having them. Your best admiral will be a nice bonus, but not a big deal since it'll be ~level 5 at the highest.
 
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What a strange and baffling decision that feels all around incredibly limiting and worse. "Hey, we've made an expansion all about leaders, but we also massively decreased the number of leaders, their functionality, and made some other very strange choices which sabotage almost all of it!".
 
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Agree, the limit is too low. I think there should be a limit, but it should be more than 6 at game start. There also needs to be some boosts to leaders based on fleet size, army size, number of colonized planets and systems. Like how you get more starbases as you add systems, only not as many. Just figure out the average size of a sector (number of systems) and add a leader for 1x, 2x, 3x that number.

I do like that I have to be more strategic with my leaders, but I don't like that I have 12/7 leaders, +64% unity / -64% XP gain, and all of those were from anomolies, paragons, and because I needed a third governor for my third sector. I'm finding that Leaders are almost, but not quite, as severely limiting as Influence.
 
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Agree, the limit is too low. I think there should be a limit, but it should be more than 6 at game start. There also needs to be some boosts to leaders based on fleet size, army size, number of colonized planets and systems. Like how you get more starbases as you add systems, only not as many. Just figure out the average size of a sector (number of systems) and add a leader for 1x, 2x, 3x that number.

I do like that I have to be more strategic with my leaders, but I don't like that I have 12/7 leaders, +64% unity / -64% XP gain, and all of those were from anomolies, paragons, and because I needed a third governor for my third sector. I'm finding that Leaders are almost, but not quite, as severely limiting as Influence.
There also needs to be some kind of distinction between leaders. As of right now, using leaders such as Generals simply makes no sense. They take up a valuable slot you could use for any other type of leader.

Admirals feel similar to be honest, since many of your fleets won't even have an admiral leading them anyway, which is genuinely strange. The question is if the bonuses imparted to a single fleet is really worth using them over a different leader that might benefit you more.
 
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At the least a Galaxy Setting slider for those who play on 1000 Stars with high Habitables would be nice; I feel like I have half the things to do in the early game as I used to, which is odd since these were mostly things I did with leaders.
 
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At the least a Galaxy Setting slider for those who play on 1000 Stars with high Habitables would be nice.
Honestly, the number of leaders is way too low. And one big problem is that all these leaders also directly come from the same pool. Who would ever use a general when you have to sacrifice a different leader type for it. Who would use a Governor, especially with their traits only affecting a singular planet which outright clashes with the idea of reducing number leaders required, etc.

Dividing up the leader types into their own pools seem like a decent idea. And then tying them to a variety of factors. More naval capacity could give you more Admirals, more Planets/Systems could give you more Governors (alongside changing traits to affect the entire sector), etc.

This is honestly the first time I've ever reverted to an older version of the game.
 
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1. Does not having an admiral for each fleet mean a massive drop in fleet strength in the end game?
The later the game, usually the less vital admirals are. This is due to additive modifiers meaning that the more fire rate modifiers and damage modifiers you collect, the less impactful each modifier is, although fire rate and damage multiply so you want a mix of the two given the choice. When you are researching repeatable weapon techs, admirals will likely start to become un-necessary if you are looking to cut leaders.

2. Can you still hire admirals and generals from the mercenaries?
The leader cap is technically soft, you can always go over it, and yes you can always hire admirals and general from mercs.

3. How many leaders can you expect to have mid/late game?
I went for a max leader test run, and by 70 years into the game I had a limit of 12 leaders. Which for a TALL empire was way too insufficient. Just giving 8 planets a governor each, the RD, and three science ships (two on excavation and one on assist research, all 3 were originally used for surveying) is already at max before discussing admirals or generals.

Side note, Generals were ALREADY useless when they were literally nothing but 2 energy upkeep a month, why in the universe would ANYONE touch a general now with a limit on all leaders and unity upkeep?

4. I usually have 15-20+ sectors... Does this mean that I will not be having a governor in each one?

I hate to break it to you, but governors are no longer sector wide, last I checked. CORRECTION: All "trait" bonuses are no longer sector-wide. The per-level bonus of the governor for the sector capital will apply to all planets in the same sector without a governor. Unfortunately, this largely means we DO want a governor per planet in many situations.

And I have not YET found an infinite supply of leader cap (e.g. repeatable tech), so I regret to inform you that you are @#$%^&.


Just in case anyone WASN'T around for the OLD leader cap, it was removed because literally no one on Earth (other than one-planet challengers) would touch governors or generals if there is a leader limit. This is ALSO why the SOFT cap was removed as well! Getting 2 scientists back from consolidating all research scientists into one is not having an impact when you have 30 habitats. And that was when governors handled an entire sector!


The limit is more what we call a 'guideline' than a hard cap.

This is technically an exotic solution, and potentially very cheesy. The main problem is that leader upkeep is increased for all leaders when you go over the limit, which will scale out of control.

I did notice that there is no upkeep for governors under Feudal Empire, which completely negates the quickly scaling upkeep penalty for going over the leader limit. The other downside is XP gain quickly approaches -100% (though never hits 0%). Of course, get some "starting leader level" modifiers, and even the XP gain reduction is less relevant...

Hmm.....actually this could be seriously unbalanced considering one of the new traditions....give me a second I have some testing to do...

This is honestly the first time I've ever reverted to an older version of the game.
I just modded out the leader limit already, rest of the update is cool. Feels like the old days with the old cap, and I am not amused.
 
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I just modded out the leader limit already, rest of the update is cool. Feels like the old days with the old cap, and I am not amused.
I honestly don't understand the leader cap, as well as shared pool among different leader types. Same for the change to Governors which outright clashes with the other changes and intentions.
 
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Weirdly, I've noticed certain tradition tree things that say they give +1 leader, or scientist, and they all seem to count against the cap. Likewise, so does the alleged free heir for imperial?
 
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I honestly don't understand the leader cap, as well as shared pool among different leader types. Same for the change to Governors which outright clashes with the other changes and intentions.
It's a bit of a pattern I have noticed with some of Paradox's games. For some reason, the phrase "Meaningful Choices" keeps popping into my head whenever I think about things like the leader cap, or Dysonsphere limit, or Juggernaut limit, things that don't scale infinitely with your empire and have no business having a limit that is fixed beyond a few finite increases. Maybe they have used that wording, maybe I'm thinking about other games.

Another speculation is that it's about preventing snowballing. The idea is that if you have a tiny number of planets, your "demand" for leaders is below the limit and you can afford to staff each planet with a leader, maybe 2 for assist research.

The problem is that "arbitrary limits" NEVER prevent snowballing. They only slow it. And I don't know about you, but I'd rather have actual catch-up mechanics that reward you for being "behind" than "A slower death".
 
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Can I suggest that early game you can run several scientists, and mid-late game replace those several scientists with admirals, keeping an explorer/archaelogist scientist on staff for anomalies, events, and excavations that pop up mid game?

But yes, I think we're going to be in a period of adaption whilst we work out the best way to work with the new leader caps and how it limits early exploration.
 
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I'm not disagreeing or agreeing with any changes to the leader cap, but I'm pretty sure someone running 12-15 scientists is exactly what they wanted to avoid.

The exact way you play and set up your galaxy is pretty unique, to the point where I don't think they're ever going to take it into account.
 
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I just had a thought from playing. I get the "leader pool refreshed" alert, and didn't care at all, because I am over my leader cap.

What if you got +1 leader cap every time the leader pool refreshed, aka every 5 years, so you could actually hire one of those new leaders that just popped up in the leader pool?

It's 2240, I am 13/10 leaders... +7 leader cap. Would mean I could skip the Aptitude tree (+1 leader) and Transcendental Learning (+2 leaders) if I wanted and be 13/14, which is good, because I think I just stumbled across the whispering monolith...

I love the discovery tree and its boosts to leader XP.
 
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I feel like at the very least it needs to be based on galaxy size. A tiny galaxy can maybe get away with 6 leaders at base, but on a huge there's just no way. Sure by mid/end game you can get your base cap to 9-12, but that's nowhere near enough just for all your sectors, research assistors, and admirals. 9 leaders for each category maybe, but not 9 total. Overall I love love love the changes to leaders, but such a low cap seems to spoil a lot of it. It's weird to design such an in depth wonderfully fun system of leveling up leaders and then drastically reduce your ability to use and enjoy it. I want to level up admirals for my small regional anti pirate fleets. I want many planetary governors that are specialized as much as the planets they are ruling.

Auto level check box for folks that dont want so much micromanagement is fine, but for those of us that DO and want to RP our sprawling empire that controls half the galaxy - let us! I own half the dang galaxy, if I want so many leaders that I can't keep track of them what's wrong with that? I'll still naturally come to have favorites that I care about and focus on more than others, in fact having a lot of relatively obscure no name leaders makes the favorites stand out. As it stands now the small handful you have are not even that special because they are one of the other 5-8 in the entire galaxy. The management of huge interstellar empire bizarrely feels isolated and even empty.

Maybe if the cap wasn't so unforgiving (double the cap = zero leader xp no matter what) the problem would not be as pronounced.
 
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Can I suggest that early game you can run several scientists, and mid-late game replace those several scientists with admirals, keeping an explorer/archaelogist scientist on staff for anomalies, events, and excavations that pop up mid game?

But yes, I think we're going to be in a period of adaption whilst we work out the best way to work with the new leader caps and how it limits early exploration.
"NO! I should be able to have TWENTY Scientists within the first three years and I should be able to explore EVERY System and research EVERY Anomaly, because that's the only way I like to play or even know how to play and the only way I can be strong, remember! Why should I have to make choices with my playstyles?!" -Some players (probably).

(I'm doing exactly what you suggest in my current 'learning 3.8' playthrough and its working well enough so far).

If people wanna explore super fast they can take Civics which give more Leaders or take the Leadership based Tradition trees, fire their Governor and/or Admiral, load up those Scientists and off they go. Some people want it all. Well, they can't have it all. Sorry.
 
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"NO! I should be able to have TWENTY Scientists within the first three years and I should be able to explore EVERY System and research EVERY Anomaly, because that's the only way I like to play or even know how to play and the only way I can be strong, remember! Why should I have to make choices with my playstyles?!" -Some players (probably).

(I'm doing exactly what you suggest in my current 'learning 3.8' playthrough and its working well enough so far).

If people wanna explore super fast they can take Civics which give more Leaders or take the Leadership based Tradition trees, fire their Governor and/or Admiral, load up those Scientists and off they go. Some people want it all. Well, they can't have it all. Sorry.
Good job not even understanding what the topic is about or people are talking about.
 
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"NO! I should be able to have TWENTY Scientists within the first three years and I should be able to explore EVERY System and research EVERY Anomaly, because that's the only way I like to play or even know how to play and the only way I can be strong, remember! Why should I have to make choices with my playstyles?!" -Some players (probably).

(I'm doing exactly what you suggest in my current 'learning 3.8' playthrough and its working well enough so far).

If people wanna explore super fast they can take Civics which give more Leaders or take the Leadership based Tradition trees, fire their Governor and/or Admiral, load up those Scientists and off they go. Some people want it all. Well, they can't have it all. Sorry.

So your solution to the massive super omega leader dlc is "lol just fire your other leaders you dont need admirals or governors anyway"? If that's what it has come to something has gone terribly wrong in the design process. Also we literally had it all for years now, no one asked to suddenly be expected to run our star empires on 6-8 leaders again (not even repeatables for leader cap afaik), it was just determined from on high that what wasn't broke needed fixing and here we are.

All people can do is give feedback, which I am not sure why you seem opposed to. It's not even as if it's some longshot that changes will be reverted. We literally went through this exact same thing once already in the Stellaris life cycle. Leader caps -> feedback of fun stifled -> caps removed. Unfortunately it's come full circle and we're back to explaining why they are a bad idea (again bizarrely many of those reasons the devs themselves vocalized when they removed the cap the first time).
 
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