one thing that annoys me

[steve213]

my main point is that regardless of weight compared to other american tanks the pershing is more like a panther than a tiger and was in the war used as a replacement to the sherman albeit a very late in the war. as mcnair didn't like tanks to be used in tank combat.

In reply to frolix

 

[Le_Carabinier]

Aren't we than in the ackward situation where the Pershing/Tiger I/KV-1 are all the first equipment model for heavy tank? Which result i.e that the KV-1 has the same ap_attack value as the Tiger I and Pershing..... .

The Pershing is a 1943 level Heavy Tank, so it has different stats. However, we know that the Tiger will be a 1941-level Heavy, and can assume that it will also be the case for the KV-1.
However, keep in mind that two things also matter : companies and variants. Companies give buffs and debuffs to units, and contribute to each nation's uniqueness. The variant system will be very important. In game's terms, you can think of the Panzer VI Tiger as a 1941-era Heavy Tank with a massively upgraded main gun, while the KV-1 is a more "vanilla" 1941-era tank.

 

[steve213]

the pershing while being heavy is not a heavy tank (in most people's opinion) there are at least 3 better choices for a heavy tank other than the pershing i shall now list them. t32, m103, t29 even the m4e2 makes more sense to use as heavy tank than the pershing.

 

[keynes2.0]

M4e2 would be a 1941 heavy tank, just one that the Americans were very slow to develop and deploy. That's if you even consider it a separate tank design.

Not every design was up to date when deployed. In particular the T-34, M4 and Stug III would all be examples of tanks whose production peaked after the date of the next tech level (1941 technologies produced after 1943).

 

[unmerged(83175)]

The Pershing is a 1943 level Heavy Tank, so it has different stats. However, we know that the Tiger will be a 1941-level Heavy, and can assume that it will also be the case for the KV-1.
However, keep in mind that two things also matter : companies and variants. Companies give buffs and debuffs to units, and contribute to each nation's uniqueness. The variant system will be very important. In game's terms, you can think of the Panzer VI Tiger as a 1941-era Heavy Tank with a massively upgraded main gun, while the KV-1 is a more "vanilla" 1941-era tank.

As far I can see the years on the techpage screen are just informative and eyecandy;

The tank models/levels are like this.

basic/improved/advanced/...
Thus i.e basic_light_tank tech activates light_tank_equipment_1, improved activates light_tank_equipment_2 and etc...

Thus the first model of heavy tank is heavy_tank_equipment_1. Now the question is, is each first major heavy tank, heavy_tank_equipement_1. Thus it doesn't matter if tech the tech has year = 1941 or 43 or 45, if always the _equipment_1 is first unlocked.

Thus if Pershing is year 1943 and the first heavy tank for the USA, will it unlock heavy_tank_equipment_1 or will it skip heavy_tank_equipment_1 and start with heavy_tank_equipment_2 instead as first buidable model.

Remember that the names are just for flavour. All countries have the same tank models. The only difference is that the base stats can be influenced by the companies, but this is something that needs carefull balance. While Germany had very good tank guns from 1941-42 onwards. It hadn't before 1941 and imo USA/ENG/SOV certainly their tank guns were from 1944 atleast as good and imo even better than the German tank guns.

Thus giving a Germany company +x hard_attack and ap_attack from start date is imo not really and the bonus shouldn't be there in 1944 as the Allies had equal tank guns.

 

[illathid]

Thus if Pershing is year 1943 and the first heavy tank for the USA, will it unlock heavy_tank_equipment_1 or will it skip heavy_tank_equipment_1 and start with heavy_tank_equipment_2 instead as first buidable model.

I believe the proper thing to take form this is that if the Pershing is the 1943 tank for the USA, then it will be heavy_tank_equipment_3, as every nation has three heavy tanks (a 1934 chassis, 1941 chassis, and a 1943 chassis).

 

[Lollardheretics]

As far I can see the years on the techpage screen are just informative and eyecandy;

The tank models/levels are like this.

basic/improved/advanced/...
Thus i.e basic_light_tank tech activates light_tank_equipment_1, improved activates light_tank_equipment_2 and etc...

Thus the first model of heavy tank is heavy_tank_equipment_1. Now the question is, is each first major heavy tank, heavy_tank_equipement_1. Thus it doesn't matter if tech the tech has year = 1941 or 43 or 45, if always the _equipment_1 is first unlocked.

Thus if Pershing is year 1943 and the first heavy tank for the USA, will it unlock heavy_tank_equipment_1 or will it skip heavy_tank_equipment_1 and start with heavy_tank_equipment_2 instead as first buidable model.

Remember that the names are just for flavour. All countries have the same tank models. The only difference is that the base stats can be influenced by the companies, but this is something that needs carefull balance. While Germany had very good tank guns from 1941-42 onwards. It hadn't before 1941 and imo USA/ENG/SOV certainly their tank guns were from 1944 atleast as good and imo even better than the German tank guns.

Thus giving a Germany company +x hard_attack and ap_attack from start date is imo not really and the bonus shouldn't be there in 1944 as the Allies had equal tank guns.

Or more casualy, for exemple :

Grosstraktor 1939 stat Arm(our) 1 Eng(ine) 1 Gun 1 Rel(iability) 1
KV1 1940 stat Arm 2 Eng 2 Gun 1 Rel 1
Tiger 1941 (Porsche) stat Arm 3, Eng 3, Gun 3 Rel 1
Tiger 1941 (Henschel) stat Arm 3, Eng 2, Gun 3 Rel 2
Pershing 1943 stat Arm 3, Eng 3, Gun 3 Rel 3

Just guessing here that it won't be possible to raise a Tiger I to stat Arm 4, Eng 4, Gun 4 Rel 4 because of an "upgrade cap", forcing the player to develop a new chassis if he want better Tiger (Here come the Tiger II...)

Oh, don't assault me on the stat, these are just "guess"

 

[unmerged(83175)]

I believe the proper thing to take form this is that if the Pershing is the 1943 tank for the USA, then it will be heavy_tank_equipment_3, as every nation has three heavy tanks (a 1934 chassis, 1941 chassis, and a 1943 chassis).

I probably missed the picture of the USA armor techpage, but what are than the heavy tank models before the Pershing?

Or more casualy, for exemple :

Grosstraktor 1939 stat Arm(our) 1 Eng(ine) 1 Gun 1 Rel(iability) 1
KV1 1940 stat Arm 2 Eng 2 Gun 1 Rel 1
Tiger 1941 (Porsche) stat Arm 3, Eng 3, Gun 3 Rel 1
Tiger 1941 (Henschel) stat Arm 3, Eng 2, Gun 3 Rel 2
Pershing 1943 stat Arm 3, Eng 3, Gun 3 Rel 3

Just guessing here that it won't be possible to raise a Tiger I to stat Arm 4, Eng 4, Gun 4 Rel 4 because of an "upgrade cap", forcing the player to develop a new chassis if he want better Tiger (Here come the Tiger II...)

Oh, don't assault me on the stat, these are just "guess"

No,

It's not like that.

It's probably:
Grosstraktor = heavy_tank_equipment_1 (can upgrade the 4 xp upgrade techs)
Tiger I = heavy_tank_equipment_2 (can upgrade the 4 xp upgrade techs)
Tiger II = heavy_tank_equipment_3 (can upgrade the 4 xp upgrade techs)

Than from those three you can make variants, when you upgrade one of the four tech variant upgrades. Which can result if you spend all your xp on grosstrakor upgrades. That It will be better than the base heavy_tank_equipment_2. (I don't remember if podcat said that a maximum upgraded variant was slightly better than the next base model or equal.)

Thus a Grosstraktor, Tiger I and Tiger II are the base models, thus without xp based variant upgrades.

Edit:

You can upgrade a base model with xp to another variant, that you name yourself. Thus if you want you can upgrade the Tiger I, with 2 extra levels of gun, 3 extra levels of armor, 2 extra levels of engine, 2 extra levels of reliability, which you than need to give a new name. You could call it PzKpfw VI Ausf E/5 .. .

 

[illathid]

I probably missed the picture of the USA armor techpage, but what are than the heavy tank models before the Pershing?

I haven't seen it so I actually have no idea. But I do know that the tech tree will look the exact same in regard to shape and tech year for every nation. The only difference is the name and picture shown. So if someone saw a picture with the Pershing as the 1943 heavy tank, it will necessarily be heavy_tank_equipment_3 (assuming PDX doesn't redo the trees).

 

[unmerged(83175)]

I haven't seen it so I actually have no idea. But I do know that the tech tree will look the exact same in regard to shape and tech year for every nation. The only difference is the name and picture shown. So if someone saw a picture with the Pershing as the 1943 heavy tank, it will necessarily be heavy_tank_equipment_3 (assuming PDX doesn't redo the trees).

Yes, as you said all tech trees are the same for each nation. Only the flavour name is different.
Modders will probably change this asap.

 

[208]

When setting up models for the nations in hoi4 we have tried to go with their own classifications rather than say how stuff would be classified in hindsight etc and with emphasis for their intended role.

Will we be able to change a unit's (or unit template's, however that will work out) preferred tank from a "medium" model to a "heavy" model as steve213 is suggesting the USA wanted to do with Shermans -> Pershings, without having to edit the template's battalion types?

Yes, as you said all tech trees are the same for each nation. Only the flavour name is different.
Modders will probably change this asap.

The tech tree may be the same, but the built tanks themselves will be slightly different because of the different manufacturer bonuses.

 

[frolix42]

I probably missed the picture of the USA armor techpage, but what are than the heavy tank models before the Pershing?

The M6 Heavy (only existed as prototypes) is the US '34 Heavy tank.

my main point is that regardless of weight compared to other american tanks the pershing is more like a panther than a tiger and was in the war used as a replacement to the sherman albeit a very late in the war. as mcnair didn't like tanks to be used in tank combat.

German tank development, in addition to being heavier than the US, was more advanced in 1943. We have concrete evidence that the Panther was intended to fully replace the Pz4, in contrast the Pershing was intended to be deployed as a specialized 'Heavy' tank to be used in conjunction with more numerous Shermans. I have yet to see evidence that the Pershing was supposed to replace all Shermans, indeed this did not happen. The M26 Pershing's mixed to poor performance in Korea conclusively shows the United States was correct to not waste money replacing more Shermans with Pershings. The Sherman was not fully phased out of front-line service until the M46 Patton had made the Pershing thoroughly obsolete.

The Pershing was not the developmental equivalent of the Panther. The Panther was much more maneuverable and much faster than the Pershing. It was relatively much cheaper than the heavier tanks it served alongside. And it's armor was concentrated in the front. The Pershing is the developmental equivalent of the Tiger I. It is a relatively rare tank, significantly heavier than the most common built tank in service. The sides of the Pershing and Tiger were relatively heavily armored. The Pershing wasn't deployed until 1945 because the US Army lagged behind Germany and SU in Tank Tech in most respects.

it's spot on the heavy tank tree taken by the m103.

I would be sad if a 1957 tank were on the Tech tree at all. For it to be in the '41 slot ahead of the T-29 would be silly.

 

[Mamluke]

The M6 Heavy (only existed as prototypes) is the US '34 Heavy tank.


......snip....


I would be sad if a 1957 tank were on the Tech tree at all. For it to be in the '41 slot ahead of the T-29 would be silly.

yeah, since the t32 was develep in the fall of 1944 and prototypes build in February. there is not much choice at all if not the t29 is there?

The successful employment of the heavily armored assault tank M4A3E2 in Europe during the Fall of 1944 emphasized the need for greater armor protection. On 7 December 1944, the Army Ground Forces recommended that the Ordnance Department develop a modification of the new Pershing tank with heavier armor, and the Army Services Forces directed that immediate action be taken to comply with this request. Two approaches were followed to solve the problem. The first produced essentially a standard Pershing with thicker armor and a lower final-drive gear ratio to maintain a reasonable level of mobility. This vehicle was designated as the heavy (later medium) tank T26E5. A longer range solution was to develop a new tank utilizing as many Pershing components as possible. On 8 February 1945, construction of four tank prototypes of such a vehicle was recommended and designated as the heavy tank T32. Formal approval for this project was recorded in March.

:LINK:(skip to the historical info)

 

[TheD3rp]

The Pershing was classified a Heavy Tank solely for morale purposes. After the war it wasn't necessary so they reclassified it as the medium tank it was.

The M26 Pershing was reclassified as a medium tank post-war because of a change in the US Army vehicle designation system. I believe it was something along these lines:
Light tank=76mm
Medium tank=90mm
Heavy tank=120mm

The M6 Heavy (only existed as prototypes)

No it didn't, the T1 heavy tank passed trials and was accepted into service as the M6, and an order for roughly 3,000 was placed. However, only 50 were actually built before the order was cancelled, and they stayed stateside throughout the war. This is going off memory, so I may have made a few errors.

 

[Deathmachinept]

It was reclassified as a medium tank only after WW2. During the war it served in that role.

+1

It was a US heavy tank project and it was a heavy tank in world war 2.

 

[NikephorosSonar]

The Pershing had a 90 mm gun vs the 75 of the Panther and the 88 of the Tiger. The American 90mm was actually inferior to the 88, but they are both heavy tank guns by the standards of the war. In weight the Pershing was slightly lighter than the Panther.

 

[frolix42]

No it didn't, the T1 heavy tank passed trials and was accepted into service as the M6, and an order for roughly 3,000 was placed. However, only 50 were actually built before the order was cancelled, and they stayed stateside throughout the war. This is going off memory, so I may have made a few errors.

40 were built between November 1943 and February 1944, you are right that could make them more than what could be strictly defined as a "prototype". But I would not really consider it "accepted into service" since it was never mass-produced and not integrated into any combat units. The US Army judged it inadequate by the time it would've been deployable, the M6 never saw service beyond as platform to test heavy weapons and equipment, small scale training and was sometimes used in propaganda displays. Similar in it's "service" to how the six Grosstraktor prototypes were utilized.

I think it does belong as a '34 Tech, should the US player in HoI4 decide early on that Heavy Tank development be worth investing in the M6 could have conceivably been fielded and been useful in combat.

 

[balmung60]

"Accepted into service" doesn't mean the same thing as "mass produced" or "actually used". Often items that were accepted into service and received an "M" designation weren't mass produced or used because they were wholly redundant with existing inventory (eg. M7 medium being basically an inferior M4 medium), an inadequate improvement for the effort it would take to change over (eg. M27 medium (T23) not really bringing anything to the table that the M4(76) didn't), or failing to actually fill a need that the army actually had (eg. M6 orders getting canceled because the army realized that it didn't actually have a need for a 60 ton heavy tank).

Also, I seem to remember that the M6 was the 1941 heavy (broadly comparable to KV-1 and Tiger 1, all of which have ~100mm effective frontal armor and room to mount an 85mm to 90mm gun of broadly comparable performance) and that 1934 was reserved for Grosstraktor and T-35 level multi-turret craziness, which also managed to cost the TOG II a slot (too sane for 1934, too insane (and overshadowed by the Churchill) for 1941).