One of the most important things in the game will be the Western Allied AI

[Adonnus]

Now, you ask, why do you say such a thing? Well, here's the answer, in the long term the Allies are the only major threat to Greater Germany once Barbarossa is finished. If the Wallied AI is of Hoi3 level then there simply won't be any major challenge for the player to incentivise them to keep playing.

Strategic bombing, nuclear warfare and the threat of an actually organised landing somewhere in Fortress Europa will have to be a real challenge here. The player as Germany should find themselves spread thin and having to deduce the possible location of a landing in many possible places, at many possible times, while dealing with a huge bombing campaign or some other form of strategic warfare.

Perhaps it's true that with reserves freed up from the East there was realistically a very low chance of Allied success in an amphibious invasion. In that case I think the AI should take novel and unpredictable steps at opening up another front in Europe, like an invasion of Spain and Portugal or an attack on the Balkans.

Simply put I'd like to see a competent Allied AI that is capable of providing a good challenge once the Soviet Union has been defeated by Germany. I never truly had the feeling the Allies were a threat after France had been beaten in Hoi3. I felt as though I could just sit on my Führerbunker general's chair and do nothing for the rest of the war save countering the minor invasion here or there, or elsewise prepare an invasion fleet against Britain or conquer Asia. Sure, I'd lose some IC from the strategic bombing but it wouldn't really affect much in the end. I want an Allied AI that'll give me a tough time even after Barbarossa, and keep me on my feet... rant over.

Edit: I would also really really like to see difficulty levels make the AI better or worse a la Starcraft 2 rather than just give arbitrary bonuses and penalties. This is, understandably, hard to do, but I hope the devs'll make a real effort here.

 

[goliard20]

basicly in no Hoi title there was a successful invasion of the fortress europe in my games, when i played it. I think the AI does pretty gould with invasions, but when u dont look away, its nearly unpossible to not kill any invader.

 

[panzerzombie]

Yes I hope too that they improved it somehow. At best the AI in Hoi3 did a lot of "Dieppes*" which were doomed to fail, so that in the end fortress europa stayed unbroken ( apart from a lot of bombers ofc ). But perhaps the change of transportation mechanics for sea transport already did the trick ?

(* yes I know that dieppe was a coverup for a raid at the radar facilities and no serious invasion )

 

[Frosted Vert]

Not crippling France from the start is a move in the right direction.

 

[svennnnnnnnnnnn]

One thing that could help the AI challenge you is late-game national focuses that makes the wallies (especially britain) far more formidable in land warfare (including but not limited to naval invasions). Not really improving the AI, but atleast they could keep you on your toes. But actually making the AI more intelligent would be a more elegant solution.

 

[Oriflamme]

Would the Allies have even tried D-Day if the Eastern Front wasn't progressing the way it was? I was always under the impression that D-Day was more intended to make a bee line for Germany before the Soviets overran the whole country. After all, from what I've read, the United States never intended to pull most of the weight in the fight against Germany, but let the Soviets expend the most men.

 

[Axe99]

Would the Allies have even tried D-Day if the Eastern Front wasn't progressing the way it was? I was always under the impression that D-Day was more intended to make a bee line for Germany before the Soviets overran the whole country. After all, from what I've read, the United States never intended to pull most of the weight in the fight against Germany, but let the Soviets expend the most men.

The US was pushing for a 1943 landing in Europe from 1942, when it was far from clear the Soviets would be able to do the heavy lifting, they just didn't have the capacity (in landing craft or available forces) to feasibly do it until 1944. That said, if the Soviets had collapsed, I would imagine the Wallies would have finished off Japan (at the very least, isolated Japan) and brought back the troops from the Pacific Theatre (of which there were quite a few) before taking on a Germany that wasn't distracted. At the end of the day, even if Germany is successful, the Wallies have the weight of population and economics behind them if they've taken Japan out of the picture.

Totally agree the capacity of US/UK to threaten an invasion in continental Europe (or elsewhere) is important. The AI not needing to build or coordinate the location of landing ships will make it a good deal easier in this regard.

 

[MGL 86]

I guess there is no separate AI codes for each of the country in HOI4 unless it is scripted. Why don`t we just say AI should be challenging regardless of country and faction?

 

[Harada.Taro]

Ai for such type of game is the most difficult thing to develop.... It's not like a stupid Starwars battlefront or soccer game.... So I don't really expect challenges when one or two majors will be down. France will fall and the colonies will just do nothing... England will stupidely try to bring all their troop back into south united Kingdom and not see me land in Scotland. Africa will be mine with 10 motorized divisions.... Slowly I will corner around Russia and join the japanese in india or China... then with a push from Crimea to mandhcuria from south to North Stallin will capitulate... The USA will watch me land and position my troops along their canadian border and push their troops there leaving their mexican border undefended to my surprise invasion when in Texas they will start to divert troops from canadian border to south they will collapse as the troops there will push south.... and the world will belong to axis once more

 

[jcpvdberg]

The best way to achieve a workable AI for the western Allies is a good AI for the Soviet Union. That way it would take at least till 1943 for a German player to defeat Soviet Union and in the meanwhile the allies can try something in Europe. My problem with HOI3 was that at the end of 1941 or start 1942 Soviet Union surrendered. That way the Allies never had a chance of building up since US was only active in the war for a few months. The Western AI should be a good one, able to plan mass invasions etc, but it all starts with a good Soviet AI that can, even if you give it your best, delay a defeat till late 1943.

 

[phantomrider]

I think the key for the Western Allies is that the "balance" of the game for the War in the East has to be correct. Germany is strong enough to expand into the Soviet Union but not strong enough to reliably beat/destroy the Soviet Union in 1941 to 1943. That way Germany can not take 1/2 to 3/4 of their forces out of the East and deploy them in Western Europe and North Africa and overwhelm the western allies or at least turn any invasion into a Dieppe. The problem for the Western Allies is that after the fall of France no one has a really good army of any size (and the Germans have a big high quality one) and to even deploy an army against the German army you have to cross bodies of water which in turn means you need to build up air and sea power as well. It takes awhile to do this so North Africa (where you have one army deployed against Germans Italians with a second later when the Yanks show up) and Italy (2 armies-small Army Group) is the best they can do rather than the East Front where the Germans had 3 army groups and maybe 12 armies total.

As long as Germany could pick off the world piecemeal and quickly -- one or two countries at a time things were good (for them). When they found that they couldn't do that with the Soviets they were in trouble and the rest of the world had time to build up forces that were superior to anything the Germans could muster. Again the key is how long the Soviets can last with only limited Western support to divert German forces away from the East Front. As the Western allies gain strength the strategic situation gets actually quite interesting for the Germans (interior lines of communication for inferior forces -- can you concentrate in one area for long enough to achieve victory on a tactical - grand operational scale to reverse military power balance and where out the allies).

One of the limitations for the western allies has been in HOI3 that the assume military control option from HOI2 was not there so each Western ally fought independently of each other (expeditionary forces were either not there or not enough) to the point that not only did the US and Great Britain not cooperate but each commonwealth nation (UK, Canada, Aussie, Indians, NZ etc) also were not playing together either further reducing the ability of the Western allies to generate combat forces that could take on the Germans. (or making playing any of the western allies any fun either in single player).

 

[XenJang]

It's actually shameful when Mexico and Brazil attempts more landings in Festung Europa then the major allied powers.

 

[Aries666]

For me the biggest issue the AI faces in terms of the western allies is getting good co-ordination between the US and UK as neither is really capable of winning solo which is not the case of the Axis - Germany and the Commintern - SOV.

 

[Dessertspoon]

There ought to be an event (or national focus) for American AI called something like "SHAEF" whereby basically the US AI assumes military control over all UK and Empire forces. Kind of a 'brute force' solution to the problem of getting the Wallies to cooperate in the game, but has some basis in reality since pretty much the yanks were running the show by 1944-45.

This doesnt necessarily make the AI any smarter, so it remains to be seen if it does any good, but giving one country power over all those divisions, fleets, convoys etc will mean that forces could be used more effectively and concentrated better at critical points. Issues to do with warscore and end-game treaties would need some kind of equitable solution (e.g. a British division under US command earns 1/3 of normal warscore than if it were independent, such that by the end of the Western front they might be able to get NW Germany at the peace table).

Otherwise, Paradox will need to come up with a more sophisticated joint-command structure after the game is released, as a priority for DLC. Because as has been said, in the final analysis the allies need to be smart in pooling and forward-basing and preparing a large number of their forces (at least 50 divisions) in order to get ashore in Europe and in the Pacific theatre to the point where they do not peter out, stall and start getting rolled back hard.

This rarely happened in previous HoI games and we havent seen it so far in HoI 4. It physically hurts in HoI 3 to see the UK invade Italy with 12 divisions, undermanned and doomed to be wiped by Italy and Germany, while the US sits back and watches because it wasn't aware this was going to happen so it has no forces in the area to assist, and has been preparing to invade France with 25 or so divisions in a few months time! To be promptly eaten up by the Germans who can easily muster 3 times that many men in France within a couple of months

 

[Aries666]

There ought to be an event (or national focus) for American AI called something like "SHAEF" whereby basically the US AI assumes military control over all UK and Empire forces. Kind of a 'brute force' solution to the problem of getting the Wallies to cooperate in the game, but has some basis in reality since pretty much the yanks were running the show by 1944-45.

This doesnt necessarily make the AI any smarter, so it remains to be seen if it does any good, but giving one country power over all those divisions, fleets, convoys etc will mean that forces could be used more effectively and concentrated better at critical points. Issues to do with warscore and end-game treaties would need some kind of equitable solution (e.g. a British division under US command earns 1/3 of normal warscore than if it were independent, such that by the end of the Western front they might be able to get NW Germany at the peace table).

Otherwise, Paradox will need to come up with a more sophisticated joint-command structure after the game is released, as a priority for DLC. Because as has been said, in the final analysis the allies need to be smart in pooling and forward-basing and preparing a large number of their forces (at least 50 divisions) in order to get ashore in Europe and in the Pacific theatre. This rarely happened in previous HoI games and we havent seen it so far in HoI 4. It physically hurts in HoI 3 to see the UK invade Italy with 12 divisions, undermanned and doomed to be wiped by Italy and Germany, while the US sits back and watches because it wasn't aware this was going to happen so it has no forces in the area to assist, and has been preparing to invade France with 25 or so divisions in a few months time!

I think it would be pretty neat if the faction leader could request x division/boats/planes for a battleplan offensive/defensive from other faction members. The leader would only be able to requisition a certain % of that nations forces (that are currently not engaged) and they would be returned upon completion. There would also have to be a reasonable time delay to allow for troop movement to a set forward base, once units arrive they are placed under the direct control of the faction leader who moves them into position to execute the plan. The faction member should also be able to refuse but this should incur some sort of diplomatic penalty up to and including expulsion from the faction for multiple offences.

 

[Dessertspoon]

I think it would be pretty neat if the faction leader could request x division/boats/planes for a battleplan offensive/defensive from other faction members. The leader would only be able to requisition a certain % of that nations forces (that are currently not engaged) and they would be returned upon completion. There would also have to be a reasonable time delay to allow for troop movement to a set forward base, once units arrive they are placed under the direct control of the faction leader who moves them into position to execute the plan. The faction member should also be able to refuse but this should incur some sort of diplomatic penalty up to and including expulsion from the faction for multiple offences.

Yes, something like this is reasonable. Esp if it means that the country getting the forces must supply some or all the equipment and supply for them. Obviously there would need to be details worked out like whether or not all troops are returned the instant a plan is cancelled, or can they be re-asssigned to new plans without needing to re-secure them again? Will the AI give a recommendation for what it needs you to request, similar to how the AI in HoI 3 told you that you neeeded X number of Arm/Inf/Art brigades for the battle-plan to succeed? Will there be a nice OOB for you to drag and drop when requesting forces, or will it be a simple slider or checkbox? Can you request multiple branches at the same time? If it's a percentage basis, can you put a setting on whereby as the leasing countyr expands their army size, more divisions are automatically leased to you up to the max percentage limit, or would this be too complicated and unwieldy? Do you get the formations as they are, or can you restructure them? Who is responsible for division designer after loaning the troops, or should there by a prohibition whereby altering the template in the leasing country doesnt affect expeditionary forces until they are returned? Should the requesting nation be able to ask/enforce the leasing nation to alter their divisional templates in line with their preferred layout? Will you be able to retool them with your updated tanks and inf equipment before they arrive, or afterwards? or are they stuck with Basic Inf Weapons I while you are on Inf Weapons III, because that is the lowest common denominator you both have....

And so on and so on. HoI games have always had some elements of coopration, whether exp. forces on loan or 'request attack' feature in HoI 3, but ultimately finer details like this make or break the feature. Expeditionary forces were kind of useless in HoI 3 because you had could not change the OOB, the divisional layout, and could not request more than 1 'unit' at a time. Which meant you had to wait 1 month between requesting single divisions off NZ, or else hotswitch into NZ and organize all their forces into 1 single Army, then switch back, request the army, and send your own convoys to pick them up (!!) But yes, I agree with you a solution of this kind is excellent provided we have flexibility, stability, and transparency in using the loaned forces from other countries.

On the plus side, It would mean that perhaps there could be a NF chain for America, beginning with "assume mantle of leadership from UK" in 1944. This would allow the UK up until 1943 to second forces from other Allied Nations to do stuff in North Africa, etc. After that, the US is the head honcho of the Allies and can start requesting forces like you said. Then the next part of the chain focuses on impressing to the US the importance of buildup in 'Fortress Britain' e.g. insta-transporting some divisions to UK, insta- adding 500 convoys to stockpile, allowing deployment after training of US diviions on UK soil, not permitting any invasion of a German controlled province in Europe until 100 divisions are in Southern England, and so on in a gradually escalating fashion gearing up for D-Day. In HoI 3, the US AI never seemed to appreciate what a massive undertaking invading Europe is, so they did it in a haphazard and piecemeal way into the jaws of German annihilation.

 

[phantomrider]

It's actually shameful when Mexico and Brazil attempts more landings in Festung Europa then the major allied powers.

No not "shameful" but poor historical simulation. Neither Mexico nor Brazil of the 1940s had the capability to 1) move multiple divisions from the Western hemisphere to Europe 2) land them on a hostile shore 3) maintain them once they got there nor in game terms is there anything they could have done to develop this kind of logistics capability.

 

[Aries666]

Yes, something like this is reasonable. Esp if it means that the country getting the forces must supply some or all the equipment and supply for them. Obviously there would need to be details worked out like whether or not all troops are returned the instant a plan is cancelled, or can they be re-asssigned to new plans without needing to re-secure them again? Will the AI give a recommendation for what it needs you to request, similar to how the AI in HoI 3 told you that you neeeded X number of Arm/Inf/Art brigades for the battle-plan to succeed? Will there be a nice OOB for you to drag and drop when requesting forces, or will it be a simple slider or checkbox? Can you request multiple branches at the same time? If it's a percentage basis, can you put a setting on whereby as the leasing countyr expands their army size, more divisions are automatically leased to you up to the max percentage limit, or would this be too complicated and unwieldy? Do you get the formations as they are, or can you restructure them? Who is responsible for division designer after loaning the troops, or should there by a prohibition whereby altering the template in the leasing country doesnt affect expeditionary forces until they are returned? Should the requesting nation be able to ask/enforce the leasing nation to alter their divisional templates in line with their preferred layout? Will you be able to retool them with your updated tanks and inf equipment before they arrive, or afterwards? or are they stuck with Basic Inf Weapons I while you are on Inf Weapons III, because that is the lowest common denominator you both have....

And so on and so on. HoI games have always had some elements of coopration, whether exp. forces on loan or 'request attack' feature in HoI 3, but ultimately finer details like this make or break the feature. Expeditionary forces were kind of useless in HoI 3 because you had could not change the OOB, the divisional layout, and could not request more than 1 'unit' at a time. Which meant you had to wait 1 month between requesting single divisions off NZ, or else hotswitch into NZ and organize all their forces into 1 single Army, then switch back, request the army, and send your own convoys to pick them up (!!) But yes, I agree with you a solution of this kind is excellent provided we have flexibility, stability, and transparency in using the loaned forces from other countries.

On the plus side, It would mean that perhaps there could be a NF chain for America, beginning with "assume mantle of leadership from UK" in 1944. This would allow the UK up until 1943 to second forces from other Allied Nations to do stuff in North Africa, etc. After that, the US is the head honcho and can start requesting forces like you said. Then the next part of the chain focuses on impressing to the US the importance of buildup in 'Fortress Britain' e.g. insta-transporting some divisions to UK, insta- adding 500 convoys to stockpile, allowing deployment after training of US diviions on UK soil, not permitting any invasion of a German controlled province in Europe until 100 divisions are in Southern England, and so on in a gradually escalating fashion gearing up for D-Day. In HoI 3, the US never seemed to get what a massive undertaking invading Europe is, so they did it in a haphazard and piecemeal way into the jaws of German annihilation.

No doubting there would be a lot of factors to take into account but a joint command AI would make for a far more formidable opponent. I think if it was kept nice and simple for big operations only, a battle plan would be drawn up and then you request hardware from faction members based on what they have available, no tinkering. You then assign each piece to a specific part of the plan. Once done each nation sends it's bits to a set rally point and after a set period of time you press go and the plan is executed as though it was a plan just you were in. As the plan unfolds you should be able to create a continuation plan were all the same assets are available but you can also call for further troops who will gather at a new rally point for use in the next stage. If you let the plan break down individual AI's get the troops back. However, you could alternatively create a defensive battle plan to keep those troops under a single command whilst you request more troops for a new offensive.

 

[WilliamTheIII]

I agree the AI will play a huge role on how the war will unfold. From what I've seen from WWW and heard from the developers the AI seems to be doing their job adequately. I hope as the game advances with patches, the AI will continue to be updated to accommodate these changes.

 

[MajorHeartfire]

Without a successful defense in the East by the Soviet Union (you can define "successful" however you want I suppose), the Germans would probably have been able to fend off the Allied invasion as it pushed further inland.

But, the thread is about the Wallied AI, and yea, I think we can all agree that if Pdox can't get their naval invasion AI right (it's been a problem for basically 80% of big strategy games), then the whole war will be boring when playing as the Germans. Of course, I'm honestly more worried about the Wallied AI when playing as one of the Wallies. Is the UK going to properly compliment the French in defending Europe? Will it cooperate with American bombing raids? Will it lend enough soldiers to the landings at Normandy?