One-hit kills, or why the Death Star is actually not that unrealistic

[FOARP]

One common joke/criticism about the Death Star in Star Wars is just how ridiculous it is that a super-sized galaxy-bestriding empire should expend vast amounts of resources building a super-weapon that can be taken out with a single proton-torpedo. Having thought about this a little bit, it's actually occurred to me that this is nothing unusual. Consider:

- HMS Hood: destroyed by a single shell-hit to either a magazine or the torpedoes which caused a catastrophic detonation.

- HMS Prince of Wales: essentially sunk by a single torpedo hit that wrecked all of the bulk-heads/glands/seals all the way along her propeller shaft, thus sinking the ship.

- IJS Fuso: sunk possibly by a single torpedo hit from the USS Melvin that broke the ship in half.

- USS Princeton: sunk by a single bomb-hit that caused fires and multiple detonations.

So what does this mean for the game? I've seen a "lucky hit" or similar feature in other games, but the problem is that the game doesn't do enough to explain to you why it was that your ship suddenly sank. I'd like to see a feature like this in-game, but perhaps it has to be accompanied with a CK2-esque pop-up explaining that your ship took a hit to the magazines and blew up (hopefully accompanied by a suitably-cool looking graphic).

 

[Raptor83]

What I am missing from naval combat is a difference in effect of "damage control teams" - quite of ten USN ships survived damage, that would result in loss of comparable IJN ship.

 

[Sic Domine]

Don't forget the Shinano - The biggest aircraft carrier, built from the biggest battleship to have existed - sunk by a single torpedo on her first, maiden voyage.

Granted, it was not finished and didn't have it's bulkheads installed, but it must've been a hell of a blow to Japanese morale.

 

[Convictuss]

Don't forget the Shokaku - The biggest aircraft carrier, built from the biggest battleship to have existed - sunk by a single torpedo on her first, maiden voyage.

Granted, it was not finished and didn't have it's bulkheads installed, but it must've been a hell of a blow to Japanese morale.

As far as I remember it was Shinano

 

[Sic Domine]

You're right, I wonder why I missed that... I edited it, embarassing

But yeah, that's what I meant.

 

[Marfach]

I've seen a "lucky hit" or similar feature in other games

As far as I know critical hits are a feature in game and a ships reliability effects the chance of enemies scoring a critical hit.

I'd like to see a feature like this in-game, but perhaps it has to be accompanied with a CK2-esque pop-up explaining that your ship took a hit to the magazines and blew up (hopefully accompanied by a suitably-cool looking graphic).

This seems like something easy to mod in if losing a ship which sustained a critical hit (or just losing a ship at all) can trigger an event, although I imagine the specific type of critical hit will have to be randomly selected.

What I am missing from naval combat is a difference in effect of "damage control teams" - quite of ten USN ships survived damage, that would result in loss of comparable IJN ship.

HoI3 had techs dedicated to Damage control, a lot of people can't wait to flesh out the new (simplified) tech system into a broader more specific one, Damage control systems and fire control systems will almost definitely be in more than a few of these mods and probably won't be difficult to mod in yourself.
You could also use Naval experience to increase a ships reliability and reduce critical hit chances, but I know this isnt quite the same as damage control and doesnt work retroactively on older ships that have already been built the way better damage control training would.
Tangentially, here is an interesting video on modern Damage control training in the Royal Navy.

 

[Flipity]

cheers for the flashback Marfach. been in the DRIU a few times when i was in the mob. good fun

 

[SchwarzKatze]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think delivering OHK is the rule behind basically all weapon engineering, battleship guns were made so big that they can penetrate the thickest of enemy armor—that of the engine and magazine; CAG carried torpedoes and bombs so big that they can only carry one; Submarines has basically no means to fight back if spotted, but launching torpedoes in all but the most advanced submarines requires locking on and firing while surfaced, and basically everyone can see the trail pointing to a torpedo's origin after spotting it, again they're supposed to sink or incapacitate what they hit so that their victims couldn't fight back.

 

[FOARP]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think delivering OHK is the rule behind basically all weapon engineering, battleship guns were made so big that they can penetrate the thickest of enemy armor—that of the engine and magazine; CAG carried torpedoes and bombs so big that they can only carry one; Submarines has basically no means to fight back if spotted, but launching torpedoes in all but the most advanced submarines requires locking on and firing while surfaced, and basically everyone can see the trail pointing to a torpedo's origin after spotting it, again they're supposed to sink or incapacitate what they hit so that their victims couldn't fight back.

This is a very valid point: weapons were designed to be powerful enough to destroy an enemy ship with a single hit. I think at least I had always been under a bit of a misimpression that naval battles, particularly those involving battleships, were a case of wearing the enemy down having gained an advantageous position.

 

[3ishop]

Hoods a bad sign, it's more of "hugely outdated battleship destoryed by Ultra modern Deathstar". She was a battlecruiser so had light armour any way and due to the desgisn in 1916 was rather outclassed by the modern guns on the 1936 designed Bismarck, she was going to take lots of damage if a shell hit her deck either way.

Prince of Wales She took 4 torpedos and a bomb before sinking. I wouldn't really say it was like the "deathstar". I'd hope tho that the battlefield damage impacts performance e.g. slowing the ship down and reducing it's combat ability.

 

[Imminentstorm]

Hoods a bad sign, it's more of "hugely outdated battleship destoryed by Ultra modern Deathstar". She was a battlecruiser so had light armour any way and due to the desgisn in 1916 was rather outclassed by the modern guns on the 1936 designed Bismarck, she was going to take lots of damage if a shell hit her deck either way.

Prince of Wales She took 4 torpedos and a bomb before sinking. I wouldn't really say it was like the "deathstar". I'd hope tho that the battlefield damage impacts performance e.g. slowing the ship down and reducing it's combat ability.

I would say more like the Japanese Destroyer Kisaragi. She was hit by a 100lb bomb from a F4F Wildcat fighter and blew up. She sunk with all hands. Sources disagree if the bomb hit the depth charge magazine (stored on the stern) or penetrated the deck and hit something sensitive internally.

 

[Marfach]

Prince of Wales She took 4 torpedos and a bomb before sinking.

Wikipedia claims it was hit by 1 Torpedo but I checked the citations and this one http://www.pacificwrecks.com/ships/hms/prince_of_wales/death-of-a-battleship-a-re-anlaysis.pdf actually claims it was disabled by 1 torpedo but hit by an additional 3 which sank it.
Just to reinforce your point.
With that in mind, having its engine cut out the ship was basically dead in the water after the first hit so broadly I think OPs point stands.

This is why you go to the citations on wikipedia and not wikipedia itself for information.

 

[FOARP]

Wikipedia claims it was hit by 1 Torpedo but I checked the citations and this one http://www.pacificwrecks.com/ships/hms/prince_of_wales/death-of-a-battleship-a-re-anlaysis.pdf actually claims it was disabled by 1 torpedo but hit by an additional 3 which sank it.
Just to reinforce your point.
With that in mind, having its engine cut out the ship was basically dead in the water after the first hit so broadly I think OPs point stands.

This is why you go to the citations on wikipedia and not wikipedia itself for your information.

I knew about the additional hits, but, as you say, PoW was essentially knocked out by a single hit. This kind of hit (a hit to the propeller shaft causing uneven rotation of the shaft, rupturing the seals all the way along the shaft-alley thus causing catastrophic flooding) actually occurred more than once during the war - though I'd have to check the book I read on this to tell you the other examples.

 

[Marfach]

I knew about the additional hits, but, as you say, PoW was essentially knocked out by a single hit. This kind of hit (a hit to the propeller shaft causing uneven rotation of the shaft, rupturing the seals all the way along the shaft-alley thus causing catastrophic flooding) actually occurred more than once during the war - though I'd have to check the book I read on this to tell you the other examples.

Well, as I said further up the thread, Critical hits are a mechanic so all you are missing is a set of events triggered by losing a capital ship which sustained a critical hit.
The specific event could even be triggered randomly, for flavor purposes it doesn't really matter where it was hit, the event will be fun anyway and if you have a handful of interesting examples it wouldn't take log to write up a handful of interesting events and even some variations of each.

With how modder friendly this game is going to be you should make this as a mod when it comes out, I'd certainly download it.

As for damage control systems, there will certainly be more than a few tech overhauls adding this so you could even offer to have your flavor mod incorporated into them.

 

[3ishop]

Wikipedia claims it was hit by 1 Torpedo but I checked the citations and this one http://www.pacificwrecks.com/ships/hms/prince_of_wales/death-of-a-battleship-a-re-anlaysis.pdf actually claims it was disabled by 1 torpedo but hit by an additional 3 which sank it.
Just to reinforce your point.
With that in mind, having its engine cut out the ship was basically dead in the water after the first hit so broadly I think OPs point stands.

This is why you go to the citations on wikipedia and not wikipedia itself for information.

It's speed slowed down a lot, I think to like 1/3rd but if it hadn't been hit repeatedly there's a good chance it would of made it back to port and I doubt the escourts and BC would of speed off without her but stayed as a group so say a "damaged engine" or "damaged prop shaft" would slow a single ship and we then have to make the choice of keeping the fleet together or splitting it in the hope to save all but likely lose that one.

I knew about the additional hits, but, as you say, PoW was essentially knocked out by a single hit. This kind of hit (a hit to the propeller shaft causing uneven rotation of the shaft, rupturing the seals all the way along the shaft-alley thus causing catastrophic flooding) actually occurred more than once during the war - though I'd have to check the book I read on this to tell you the other examples.

Yeah it was a serious hit and knocked her speed and half her guns out, why I did add in the damage modifiers.

I would compare it to the Bismarck, it's rudders got crippled by a torpedo by a Swordfish.

 

[Axe99]

This is a very valid point: weapons were designed to be powerful enough to destroy an enemy ship with a single hit. I think at least I had always been under a bit of a misimpression that naval battles, particularly those involving battleships, were a case of wearing the enemy down having gained an advantageous position.

If we're talking IRL naval battles (as opposed to HoI1-3, which were very much a 'wearing them down' model), it's a bit of both. You've got your Hoods (noting that she was hit more than once, but she definitely went out critical-hit style), and you've got your one-hit disabling events (PoW, Bismarck), but you've also got ships slugging it out for hours (Bismarck post steering damage, Graf Spee and its pursuers - and Graf Spee was shooting 11" shells at CLs, but didn't manage to sink any of its opponents) and ships that were worn down before exploding (Yamato under aerial attack - it didn't go up right away, but eventually went up and how).

I'm currently going through all the ships that start the game, including the fates, so have looked at a lot of 'how did this ship sink'*, and the impression I've got is that it's a real mix. Some ships take huge amounts of damage and keep going, some ships take on 5" hit on their torpedo rack from a CVE and are disabled by the resulting ordnance explosion and then finished off afterwards. Some BBs took torpedo hits and kept on going (one of the Nelrods, can't remember which), others took one hit and went down (Ark Royal, even if it was only because they didn't have any diesel-powered generators), others took multiple torpedoes to sink (Royal Oak, Barham). It's worth noting that while Prince of Wales went down to torpedoes fairly quickly, she took multiple 15" hits during the Battle of the Denmark Straight and kept on going, despite having not finished being shaken down.

Given this, I think the treatment of "a certain amount of critical hits, but by no means all the time" in HoI4 is a huge step forward for the naval combat model. I like the ideas put forward in the thread of having message pop-ups when this happens, adds immersion and creates a story out of a disaster (or victory).

If we're lucky, down the track it may be possible to temporarily affect the speed of ships through damage (and other things, but damage to speed tended to be the critical thing).

* I've only done US, UK and most of Japan so far, hence examples from those navies - I'm not snobbing the Italians, Germans or French.

 

[wright1331]

If we're talking IRL naval battles (as opposed to HoI1-3, which were very much a 'wearing them down' model), it's a bit of both. You've got your Hoods (noting that she was hit more than once, but she definitely went out critical-hit style), and you've got your one-hit disabling events (PoW, Bismarck), but you've also got ships slugging it out for hours (Bismarck post steering damage, Graf Spee and its pursuers - and Graf Spee was shooting 11" shells at CLs, but didn't manage to sink any of its opponents) and ships that were worn down before exploding (Yamato under aerial attack - it didn't go up right away, but eventually went up and how).

I'm currently going through all the ships that start the game, including the fates, so have looked at a lot of 'how did this ship sink'*, and the impression I've got is that it's a real mix. Some ships take huge amounts of damage and keep going, some ships take on 5" hit on their torpedo rack from a CVE and are disabled by the resulting ordnance explosion and then finished off afterwards. Some BBs took torpedo hits and kept on going (one of the Nelrods, can't remember which), others took one hit and went down (Ark Royal, even if it was only because they didn't have any diesel-powered generators), others took multiple torpedoes to sink (Royal Oak, Barham). It's worth noting that while Prince of Wales went down to torpedoes fairly quickly, she took multiple 15" hits during the Battle of the Denmark Straight and kept on going, despite having not finished being shaken down.

Given this, I think the treatment of "a certain amount of critical hits, but by no means all the time" in HoI4 is a huge step forward for the naval combat model. I like the ideas put forward in the thread of having message pop-ups when this happens, adds immersion and creates a story out of a disaster (or victory).

If we're lucky, down the track it may be possible to temporarily affect the speed of ships through damage (and other things, but damage to speed tended to be the critical thing).

* I've only done US, UK and most of Japan so far, hence examples from those navies - I'm not snobbing the Italians, Germans or French.

I like everything you said, except about the message poppups

Hoi already has a lot of popups, I wouldnt like anymore to be shown by default. Maybe be able to look at a screen when the battle is over that shows damage taken, and how a ship was sunk.

 

[Marfach]

I like everything you said, except about the message poppups

Hoi already has a lot of popups, I wouldnt like anymore to be shown by default. Maybe be able to look at a screen when the battle is over that shows damage taken, and how a ship was sunk.

This has progressed into an idea for a mod, and you can turn pop-ups off, so that shouldn't be an issue. Also it is rare to lose or sink capital ships so it would be far from a pop-up spam. There is currently a popup at the end of naval battles anyway by default which I imagine can be turned off. Pop-ups are only a problem imo when playing on speed 4 or 5 and in all honesty you are doing something wrong if you are playing any nation with Capital ships to be sunk on speed 4 or 5 during war time.

 

[wright1331]

This has progressed into an idea for a mod, and you can turn pop-ups off, so that shouldn't be an issue. Also it is rare to lose or sink capital ships so it would be far from a pop-up spam. There is currently a popup at the end of naval battles anyway by default which I imagine can be turned off. Pop-ups are only a problem imo when playing on speed 4 or 5 and in all honesty you are doing something wrong if you are playing any nation with Capital ships to be sunk on speed 4 or 5 during war time.

I figured you ment for all ships that sinke, i didnt see anything about only capital ships.

and yes some of us play on speed 4 when there isnt heavy ground fighting going on. Also, it doesnt mattter what speed you play on as far as losing ships, because you cant manually disengage them.

 

[GermanPower]

To be fair. The death star was moon sized. A single strike of a tiny explosive by comparison still doesn't make any sense. I hate the fact now it's happened three times. It's very very very lazy story telling. 3 times. 2.5. I guess...it was a whole lot more in New Hope 2.

Besides that. Depends on how common you'd want it to happen. I'd prefer seeing slugg fest 99.9% of the time.