One Game to rule them all...

[The Wookiee]

World War 2 Online is my guess. I'd say they could make an excellent job with a funding organisation behind, like EA Games or any publisher for that matter.

 

[WWIINERD]

"...so since the FPS part is pretty much real-time (maybe standing for a 12h period), you'd only be able to play 1 game-day in two game-hours (one day and one night cycle) ... that's 12 game-days per real-time day ... that's approximately 6 months (IRL) to fight from 1939-1945 (in-game) ... :wacko:
BUT I'd participate in it if it ever materializes[/QUOTE]"

That's not as bad as I thought it might be. Remember, that would be the largest scale. I think you could have some really great MP games on much smaller scales not involving all the levels of play that would not be so cumbersom.

I am new to this and all forums. Please pardon my ignorance. What is MMORPG??

 

[WWIINERD]

"...The idea will take a lot of money, time and manpower. It has never been done before because of that reason. Moreover it tends more to MMORPG rather than strategy game (which is Paradox's forte).[/QUOTE]"

Paradox would not have to produce all of these games but could cooperate with other developers on the interface. Each interface would really only need to convert game scores into ratings that make sense to the broader-scoped game (BSG) above it and/or narrower-scoped game (NSG) bellow it, convey outcomes to the BSG, and convey specs for scenarios that make sense to the NSG.

 

[GrimReaper]

I am new to this and all forums. Please pardon my ignorance. What is MMORPG??

MMORPG = Massive Multiplayer Online RolePlaying Game.

 

[GrimReaper]

Here is one game called World War 2 Online: http://www.wwiionline.com/

GameSpy Article: http://archive.gamespy.com/articles/january02/ww2online2look/

I think that this game is the closest to the one discussed, only the FPS part in it as far as I can see, though.

 

[WWIINERD]

I think Paradox would make a killing negotiating terms for their collaberation on developing the needed interface for new games produced by other developers. Other than developing these interfaces, Paradox would be able to stay focused on the grand strategy end of the game spectrum.

 

[unmerged(15233)]

That's a long post, and I'll say in advance that I havent read it all. However, I do understand the basic idea of what you propose.

I have shared the same fantasy for a while, but as others have pointed out, this unfortunately probably wont exist (in the near future).

I did, however, start working on a design prototype for a similar game, which would not require interfacing betwen different games. Below is what I came up with in my design document.

I have almost completed a "hot-seat" version of the game, limited to a single battle however. But this could easily be expanded to a more complex multiplayer affair. Currently, the game is not very realistic militarily (with only three different types of base units and extremely abstracted combat).

Design doc:

Outline

The game is an online military strategy game that allows users to collaboratively command all parts of a country's military, diplomacy and economy. The main theme the player will encounter is that of rank, forcing the player to perform well in order to move up the military command structure, starting as a Company Captain, and ending as a National Leader. Essentially, every aspect of a country's military actions will be controled by human players, thereby creating a true to life military conflict where close to nothing is controlled by artificial intelligence. The game consists of numerous factions, and so each player can choose which country he wishes to be a part of.

The game is split up into seven game modes, according to the player's game rank. The ranks are as follows:

- National Leader (controls a faction's grand strategy as well as economic output as well as diplomacy)
- General (commands an Army)
- Lt. General (commands a Corps)
- Mj. General (commands a Division)
- Colonel (commands a Brigade)
- Lt. Colonel (commands a Battalion)
- Captain (commands a Company)

A collection of players of the same rank is called a command group. Levels of commands are alled Command Levels, for example the Divisional Command Level, or Battalion Command Level.

Essentially all game modes, with the exception of National Leader, deal solely with military command, which also includes supply management. However, most players will also be able to participate in the game's diplomacy mode, as diplomatic decisions are made by democratic votes. A player advances through the ranks by vote of members of the higher command group, according to how many open spots there are in the higher group. Only players with the best performance statistically can be considered for promotion. Only a certain number of spots are available in each command group, based on a faction's size. Spots become available when players' subscriptions expire, or when players are relegated due to poor performance. The relegation process works the same way as the promotion process. Votes for promotion and relegation occur consistently in a given time interval, with a certain number of players being promoted and relegated each time interval.

As stated earlier, there are four main aspects to the game, in terms of what players control: military action, supplies, economics, and diplomacy. Below is a description of all four.

- Economics are limited to the management of factories as a means of producing supplies. The game world has a static number of factories throughout the entire game, the only way to increase economic output is by capturing territories from opposing factions that contain factories. It may be possible to trade between allied countries, though this is not yet certain. Factory management is limited to National Leaders.

- Diplomacy is limited to creating and breaking alliances. Only National Leaders can conduct diplomacy.

- Supplies are tied directly into economics, in that all supplies must be created in factories. Starting from National Leader and moving down through the ranks, each type of commander will have the responsibility of allocating supplies to military units. The National Leader determined how many factories should be allocated to producing each of the five supply types, Artillery Ammunition, Infantry Ammunition, Equipment, Medical and Rations. These supplies will also be allocated by the National Leader to the faction's Armies. From here, Generals take command of the supplies and divide them between the Army's Corps'. Then the Lt. General controls the supplies and divides them among his Divisions. Next, the Mj. General takes command of the supplies, and must allocate the supplies he was given to his brigades, determining how much artillery ammunition and infantry ammunition each of his brigades gets. The same responsibility is then passed down to the Colonels and Lt. Colonels. Captains have to perform with the supplies that they are given by their superiors. Each Command Level only receives a percentage of its allocated supplies based on its proximity to its superior Command Level, as well as rules concerning being in enemy territory.

- Military action is the primary focus of the game. Each Command Group will be able to play within their Command Level and all Commands Levels beneath them. For instance, a Colonel can also play as a Lt. Colonel or Captain, whereas a Captain can only play as a Captain, and a National Leader can play in any Command Level. Every Command Group above Company Level can assign orders to units in Command Levels one lower than their own. For example, a Lt. General can only give orders to divisions, whereas Colonels can only give orders to battalions. These orders are then executed by players of lower ranking. Only when certain orders are completed can a player issue new orders. An in depth military gameplay description follows.

Game Flow
The game works on a unique turn-based system. As opposed to traditional turn based systems found in single player games, where Player A moves, and then Player B, each turn in this game allows all factions to move at the same time. This way, the time in between turns is used to issue orders, these orders are then executed at the same time as the orders of all other players. The time between each turn varies between the different Command Levels, meaning that Mj. Generals may be able to issue orders only twice a day, whereas company commanders can issue commands every few minutes. The resulting effect is that there will be less to do the higher in the command chain you are playing.

Map and Movement
The game map will be hex-based on all levels, though the scale will decrease as you move down the command chain, meaning that one hex playing as National Leader may be 2,000 square kilometers, whereas one hex playing as Company Captain may represent merely 25 square meters.
As movement orders are issued, units automatically move to their desination, providing that they are in friendly terrirtory. However, as soon as they attempt to move into enemy territory, all Command Levels become active in the movement process, meaning that Lt. Generals tell their Corps' where to move, then the Mj. Generals issue movement orders to their Divisions, etc, down to the Captain level.

Factories and Supplies
Supplies are the backbone to any army. Under-supplied armies will not fight well, and giving supplies to an unengaged unit will waste precious resoures. Therefore, the supply system requires careful balancing by all Command Levels. As mentioned earlier, supplies are broken into five categories: Artillery Ammunition, Infantry Ammunition, Equipment, Medical, and Rations. Each type of supply has different uses and effects on units. Military units require a certain number of Rations per day to fight effectively. If not given these rations, fighting effectivity will decrease. Over a military units lifetime, its equipment will naturally become outdated. For this reason, Equipment needs to be updated every once in a while in order to keep military units up to date. By having more Equipment than required, a military unit will fight with greater strength. Medical supplies are required to restrengthen weakened units. Artillery and Infantry Ammunition are what military units require to engage in combat; without ammunition, units will have no fighting power.
When commissioning new miliary units, a certain minimum amount of each supply will be consumed and given to the new military unit.
As mentioned earlier, the economic portion of the game focuses solely on the production of supplies. Each factory within a faction's territory can be designated to produce any one of the four supplies. The supplies produced at that factory are stored in a stockpile at that location, which means that if a factory is captured by an enemy, the supplies within the factory's stockpiles are also given to the enemy. When a military unit is supplied, the National Leader must designate from which stockpile it is supplied. Supplies can be moved from one stockpile to another, but of course this process takes time.
Units must be within a certain proximity of a supply stockpile in order to be able to receive supplies. After surpassing this distance, onnly a small percentage of designated supplies will reach the unit. The same applies for military units within a command structure, so a Division too far away from its HQ (Corps) will also suffer supply shortages.

Army Commissioning and Structure
The organization of an Army is as follows: Army->Corps->Division->Brigade->Battalion->Company->Platoon->Squad. The exact composition of any given army, however, will be determined when the units are commissioned by a National Leader. The process of creating new armies is based on a faction's manpower. Manpower determines how many new units can be commissioned, and it is also the source of reinforcements for active armies. When a National Leader creates a new Army, he can choose the exact structural composition of the army within certain limits, meaning that he can indicate how many Corps, Divisions, etc will be in the Army.

Manpower
Manpower is a resource representative of how many able-bodied men are available for military service. As mentioned above, manpower is used in commissioning new units, as well as reinforcing weakened units. Depending on the amount of land owned, each faction has a monthly increase of manpower.

Due to the grand scope of this game, the easiest way to present in-depth information about the gameplay is by outlining a possible scenario and seeing it through the eyes of each Command Group.

Scenario

The faction we are playing with in this scenario is a faction in Northern Germany. Our faction is bordered by numerous other German factions, as well as a dutch faction to the West. Our territory has an economic output of 7 factories, and our military consists of the II Armee Gruppe, the IV Armee Gruppe, and the VII Armee Gruppe. Playing as a National Leader, we first go to our economic screen, which shows us that currently six of our seven factories are manufacturing Ammunition. Realizing that our ammnition stockpile is high and in anticipation of a future conflict with the Dutch faction, we realize that we will be needing more ordinary supplies in order to have sufficient medical resources to treat our men. Accordingly, we order five of the factories to supply ordinary supplies, leaving the other two to continue producing ammunition. Of course, since...

That's where I stopped.

EDIT: You'll notice that the design doc talks about a hex-based map, but I scrapped that, and as you can tell by the screenshot below, I am working with square tiles instead. While not as flexible, they are far easier to work with for a coder like me!

RE-EDIT: After re-reading this design document, some of the ideas have hanged over the course of the actual implementation. For example, supplies have been abstracted even more, military focus wont go as low as Squad level, and much more. But I think this gives you a sense of what I'm trying to do.

If anyone is interested in working on such a project with me, let me know! Like I said, I already have the most important building block just about completed. You can see a screenshot below, note that I have an artist working on some new graphics (me + MSPaint is not good).

wamcandrew@hotmail.com if you want to get in touch, or of course the forums work too

 

[WWIINERD]

Here is one game called World War 2 Online: http://www.wwiionline.com/

GameSpy Article: http://archive.gamespy.com/articles/january02/ww2online2look/

I think that this game is the closest to the one discussed, only the FPS part in it as far as I can see, though.

Yeah. They got the idea. They are working from the bottom up. Paradox would probably not have all that much trouble working from the top down.

What do you think about the idea of Cheif of Army, Navy, Air, or Intel expansions. Man it would be fun to construct units, configure deployment, R&D specific weapons, and develop doctrines and then use them in an HOI2 like game. I'm not made of $$ but I'd pay for that level of play.

 

[von Rosen]

dont post your address battyboy the nigerian crew take u .

 

[GrimReaper]

Yeah. They got the idea. They are working from the bottom up. Paradox would probably not have all that much trouble working from the top down.

What do you think about the idea of Cheif of Army, Navy, Air, or Intel expansions. Man it would be fun to construct units, configure deployment, R&D specific weapons, and develop doctrines and then use them in an HOI2 like game. I'm not made of $$ but I'd pay for that level of play.

I would absolutely love a game like this. I have thought about the concept before, and then I came to wonder how it could work out.

If I want to play at the top-most strategic level, I would like time to go faster than IRL, otherwise tech research will take forever.

OTOH, if I feel like playing at the lowest level, ie FPS view, I want 1 second game time be 1 second IRL time, or else it will be a mighty strange game (like turning Call of Duty into something turn-based)

The only solution I could think of is that every player must agree to a certain time rate and level to play on. There could be a voting system to jump to another level/time rate.

My 2 cents.

 

[WWIINERD]

I think most of the MP games would not encompass the full spectrum (grand strat - FPS). They would probably take in segments of the spectrum like grand strat - tactical, or tactical - FPS, or operational level - tactical. All of these would be great games. A player could build their rating as a commander or the experience of their units by playing at one level and then use those ratings for that commander or those units in another level of game. I would not waste my time ever playing a game that didn't fit into this system if it existed.

 

[unmerged(16832)]

You'd need so many dev teams to cooperate and so much time trying to get a bunch of developments mashed together that you might as well make some seperate games and make more money.

 

[WWIINERD]

You'd need so many dev teams to cooperate and so much time trying to get a bunch of developments mashed together that you might as well make some seperate games and make more money.

That's the point. These would be separate games produced by whoever and taking whatever form. The only thing is, the outcomes of these different games would be translated into ratings useful to the other games in the line and transfered to the appropriate games via relatively simple interface. Just take scores/outcomes, translate them into meaningful ratings, send/recieve between games.

This forum has a lot of threads that indicate there is a strong desire for colaborative game play and varying degrees of complexity. AI limitations are always a big concern to everyone. If you make it so that MP play is easy and fun, you won't have to rely as heavily on AI. Individual developers can develop the games they are good at developing, Paradox can help the games communicate with each other and make $$$.

Something like this is already being done by the shooters http://www.wwiionline.com/. Paradox could do it a lot better. Especially for those of us who prefer strategy games to shoot-em-ups.

 

[unmerged(6766)]

I think a game where Chief of Army, Navy and Air Force were controlled by separate people would be great. It would really highlight the rivalries between the branches and you'd have problems with getting them to support each other. Say the Army wants a battleship to help soften up the defenses, but the Navy doesn't want to risk getting their battleship damaged.

 

[unmerged(34422)]

Yeah first they need to get a new engine, cause this ones worn out

 

[WWIINERD]

Yeah first they need to get a new engine, cause this ones worn out

Are you referring to the idea or the thread?

 

[WWIINERD]

I think a game where Chief of Army, Navy and Air Force were controlled by separate people would be great. It would really highlight the rivalries between the branches and you'd have problems with getting them to support each other. Say the Army wants a battleship to help soften up the defenses, but the Navy doesn't want to risk getting their battleship damaged.

I hadn't thought of that. Makes me think of the huge disagreement between the Ike and the air generals on how the strategic bombers should be used on D-Day (interdiction vs. tactical bobming). This would add tons of depth to game play.

 

[Old Joe]

this dream is so close to simulate reality, that it never will happens, just because of mp playability or balance issues

massive battlescenarios of such mp detalisation is maximum what i can imagine, when really massive conscription is helded before such game begans, and when you dies in game you quits it, but those shooters or squad leaders weaving around and exits game after they annihilate rule is too hard, and than they have to wait just for another battlescenario to start, and still i doubt that really many of those wanna do began it from lets say stalingrad massacre, really funny for those tactic strategic or hos's, but echelons of conscripts will dye in first assoult, so what a fun of it, they should be allow to continue as new recruits, like respawn? so that is everyone already saw too many times

 

[WWIINERD]

this dream is so close to simulate reality, that it never will happens, just because of mp playability or balance issues

massive battlescenarios of such mp detalisation is maximum what i can imagine, when really massive conscription is helded before such game begans, and when you dies in game you quits it, but those shooters or squad leaders weaving around and exits game after they annihilate rule is too hard, and than they have to wait just for another battlescenario to start, and still i doubt that really many of those wanna do began it from lets say stalingrad massacre, really funny for those tactic strategic or hos's, but echelons of conscripts will dye in first assoult, so what a fun of it, they should be allow to continue as new recruits, like respawn? so that is everyone already saw too many times

I agree. I think that it would be impossible to run a massive FPS with everyone running around getting killed and wanting to respawn. :wacko: That wouldn't even be fun. I am thinking mostly about the grand strategy-operation-tactical end of game play with the possibility of tying in a few special ops (recon squads/snipers) individual players. Maybe only one or two FPS players per company.

FPS play and interconnectivity with a tactical level game is futuristic. It isn't something that Paradox should concern itself with. But if Paradox branches out to include cabinet level extensions to HOI3, and works with another developer to interface with an operational level game, then when (not if) a tactical level game like that does come out, its developers may want to tie in with the Paradox line of games. Maybe, maybe not. I wouldn't care all that much, I would be playing at the HOI3 with extensions - operational level myself. The games at the high command end of this spectrum would probably not be that hard to tie together. We're only talking about exchanging outcomes, scores, and scenario specs.

One other thing, multiple games from multiple developers with various MOs would be able to tie in. It would be the developer's responsibility to meet interface requisits for tying into the Paradox line.