One disappointing thing about HOI compared to CK,EU,VIC

[CHRIS3169]

When I'm playing Crusader Kings 2 or EU4 for example(and it goes even more for Victoria 2, but I never got into it), after a big drawn out war ends, it's one of my favorite times in the game.

Using influence over your newly conquered/ceded territories, converting provinces to your religion and culture, and every other means of reaping the benefits of your victory(or planning revenge if you lost), is such a fun time in the game, because it's the start of the next phase of your game: planning for your next eventual confrontation.

I love HOI games personally, and understand that they're more focused on warfare and strategy than running a country successfully throughout the given time, but after World War 2 ends, there's such an empty feeling.

Usually, the one big challenge of the game is completed(unless of course you focus on a confrontation with the third faction that didn't fight you during the war(aka operation unthinkable), it just seems like all that struggle is for nothing.

There is a huge wave of euphoria when you finally force an unconditional surrender, but then what? Conquering one of the other factions will usually make you the sole superpower, enabling you to bring irresistible force down on anyone else in the game. In such a short timeframe, there really isn't much to do in the way of converting provinces into lebensraum, so at least IMO the victory doesn't pay off like it does in other Clausewitz games where you look on to the future.

I'm in no means bashing HOI, like 99% of the people on this forum I'm a huge ww2 buff and it's easily the most in depth game for people like us, enacting the strategies of the men from that era that we admire, bringing down the men that we despise, and answering all of the what if questions that alternate history buffs frequently ask. What if Hitler didn't attack Russia on 41? Let's find out. What if USSR AND Germany were allies after taking Poland? Let's find out. What if Canada declares war on every country on earth? ~noneutrality, let's find out.

Basically what I'm trying to say is such an engaging and fun filled campaign has little pay off. It would be an AWESOME dlc if they extended the timeline another couple decades, extended techs and allowed us to play out the long term consequences of allies and enemies we made in the war, the fate of both the victors and the vanquished, the ever changing spheres of influence established after the war, and the continued push between the two remaining ideologies. Can't wait til June 6th!

 

[Immortal88]

Who knows, maybe there will be a postwar & cold war dlc at some point? Probably after the ahistorical "Aztec Doomsday Device" dlc.

I suppose you are right about integrating new lands into your empire being interesting in those other games, but HoIIV only covers a decade, not four to ten centuries. Resistance movements in conquered territories are a thing, so I'm not sure what kind of "integration" mechanics (or rather obstacles) you would want to have modeled within such a short timeframe? https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...velopment-diary-12th-of-february-2016.908066/

 

[Denkt]

There is a reason why HOI4 only cover 12 years (although you can play on if you wan't).

 

[agentgb]

I agree, would be nice, seen plenty of these threads, so your not alone in your thinking, and i hope to see more, if you don't ask, you don't get, paradox won't make any such dlc's or games unless they see a demand for it.

 

[Wimpola]

After the war all nations are so badly bloodied that it saps the strength out of the countries. If you played as the Americans you may be better off but as Germany, France, or the Soviets you would have been severely ruined by the war. The point is in HoI games is to fight it out until there is hardly a man standing. A second war after the first is very unlikely as most countries aren't in any state for another war. However there will be many mods that will extend the timeLine allowing a second massive war maybe 5-10 years after the first which will allow nations to rebuild and regain manpower.

 

[Himliano]

I really hope someone makes a mod with a "no-time-limit". I'd really want to try to get world domination with Spain or at least try to recover all historic pieces of land that were once Spanish (or maybe a faction of Spanish speaking speaking nations). Anyway, I want and need more years to be able to do it!

 

[Wimpola]

I really hope someone makes a mod with a "no-time-limit". I'd really want to try to get world domination with Spain or at least try to recover all historic pieces of land that were once Spanish (or maybe a faction of Spanish speaking speaking nations). Anyway, I want and need more years to be able to do it!

The only problem with a longer timeline is that their isn't enough to research. You will research everything maybe by 1950 or so and then there isn't anything but what you already have so it becomes boring. Also after the World War your nation may be devastated and as Spain you have a civil war which will sap a lot of strength out of your country. So good luck on you play through but maybe download a extended timeline type mod that adds more research so it doesn't get boring after a while.

 

[Immortal88]

You can just continue playing without any mods already. The game "finishes" at a certain date and from then on out you cannot collect achievements anymore, but you can duke it out as long as you want.

 

[TheDerpyBeagle]

To be fair, the whole point of the Hearts of Iron series is the Second World War, so once you've won it, the game should feel 'complete,' within a sense. It could be interesting to have a multi-nation debate on how to re-draw the map of the world, with each victorious nation vying to make borders benefit themselves the most. Something like that could force you to make compromises to how you wanted post-war Europe or Asia, and provide basis for an Operation-Unthinkable style World War 3 to occur, assuming that you only fought/beat one faction in WWII.

 

[BishopofNoobs]

ahistorical "Aztec Doomsday Device" dlc

Sunset invasion 1940 confirmed? :0

 

[LordOfWar16]

Dan 'Podcat' Lindt actually hinted that an korea dlc could be possible (NOT that they are making one, to be clear), but that an cold war dlc would require different mechanics which would drift into victoria territory. It could be possible that we would see one for korea for example, but there are always plenty of mods that extend the timeline of the game.There is plenty of replayability aswell and because if that i am fine with it if i end the campaign in 1948 or 1950 for example. The game doesnt have an strict enddate overall.

The tech trees can easiely be expanded into the 2000's if someone puts the effort in, but adding more than 10 years doesnt really seem to be worth it since, as you said, its likely that most people have painted alot of the world in their color by that time already anyway, unless you behave of course and dont choose total annexation on everyone and force rather generous demands on your enemy, like only taking elssas-lothringen and the Champagne from France and the former german colonies in africa. Without puppeting them of course.

It is an different story if you played one of the minors of course, that doesnt really have the capacity to basicly do a world conquest in 12 years for example. Maybe you want to play china and controll asia yourself or brazil and want to conquer south america, etc.

 

[potski]

I agree, would be nice, seen plenty of these threads, so your not alone in your thinking, and i hope to see more, if you don't ask, you don't get, paradox won't make any such dlc's or games unless they see a demand for it.

People asked for it seven years ago while HOI3 was being developed. And they probably asked for it while HOI2 was being developed. The only change in their approach after all this time is to make it that you can now just play on past 1946 without requiring a mod.

It's not just tech research that's an issue. The cold war really needs some different mechanisms. How do you simulate the Vietnam War using HOI3 combat rules, if the Vietcong have small units with poor equipment? Maybe the new border war feature which just causes attritional losses, not full scale battles, might assist. But it might not be entirely satisfactory. It's so far pretty untried.

But there is also a need for a whole set of new leaders. Plus the whole National Focus tree is useless. It doesn't actually go very far into the current timeline, being designed around guiding you and the AI into war, not dealing with the aftermath. It would need alot of stuff for a post-war Europe. Things like the Marshal Plan, Soviet actions to create puppets in Poland, East Germany , and the Berlin airlift etc. Things to cover the split of Korea, and subsequent war. Suez Crisis and Cuba. All need to be scripted, tested and balanced, as well as loads of new artwork. You are basically developing a whole new game content, but on top of an engine designed around WW2 warfare, and trying to make it work. You absolutely must change the research set-up or everyone ends up with nukes, and you need some sort of MAD concept that holds back people from using them. And you have a real difficulty where resources are located - during the 1950s the Arab countries discovered they had loads of oil, and that changed the whole balance of economic power. Coupled with the consumer revolution with fridges, freezers, cars, TVs the world was a different place by the 1960s, and the laws don't work.

Then came the terrorists... Not just the odd anarchist who managed to write his name into the history books by blowing up an Archduke, but organised groups who realised after Munich that they could make international headlines all round the world by the most cowardly shit.

And how far do you go with the timeline? I nearly pissed myself laughing at all of the serious commentary about whether the UK should send bombers to Syria. There was a huge national debate about whether we should commit a SQUADRON, and when did a squadron become only six planes? That's not a war, that's just pretend shit. And while I'm on the subject, now it counts as a fleet to have a couple of frigging frigates!

Yeah, the world has changed a bit since 1945. For the better of course . But not good for development of an open-ended WW2 game. Beyond Korea, Hearts of Iron couldn't ever work satisfactorily. It needs a new game to do justice to the Cold War.

 

[Gremper]

Using influence over your newly conquered/ceded territories, converting provinces to your religion and culture, and every other means of reaping the benefits of your victory(or planning revenge if you lost), is such a fun time in the game, because it's the start of the next phase of your game: planning for your next eventual confrontation.

Really, you like this? In EU4, I was always annoyed with the coring/converting/culture-flipping mechanics because (in my opinion at least) they're a chore without any real decision-making and only serve the purpose of regulating the speed of the blobbing process. Well, I guess if some people enjoy this aspect of gameplay, its existence is justified.

Back to topic: I think having a longer timeline would make a lot of sense when playing as US or Sowjet Union, but less for other powers. For example, if you play as US and the playthrough is roughly historical, why would you try to liberate as much as possible of Europe before the Russians do? If the game ends after the war, there is no need to keep the Communists contained.
On the other hand, when playing as e.g. Germany, an extended timeline might ruin the "end game feeling", the feeling that this is the final struggle that will end in either in total victory or total defeat. So, I think an extended timeline would be an overall improvement, but it would be a little bit at the expense of the WW2 flavour.

 

[jalapen0]

It is an empty feeling after the war is over. Thats because its a ww2 game. The fun is in the war itself, not the peace.

 

[agentgb]

People asked for it seven years ago while HOI3 was being developed. And they probably asked for it while HOI2 was being developed. The only change in their approach after all this time is to make it that you can now just play on past 1946 without requiring a mod.

It's not just tech research that's an issue. The cold war really needs some different mechanisms. How do you simulate the Vietnam War using HOI3 combat rules, if the Vietcong have small units with poor equipment? Maybe the new border war feature which just causes attritional losses, not full scale battles, might assist. But it might not be entirely satisfactory. It's so far pretty untried.

But there is also a need for a whole set of new leaders. Plus the whole National Focus tree is useless. It doesn't actually go very far into the current timeline, being designed around guiding you and the AI into war, not dealing with the aftermath. It would need alot of stuff for a post-war Europe. Things like the Marshal Plan, Soviet actions to create puppets in Poland, East Germany , and the Berlin airlift etc. Things to cover the split of Korea, and subsequent war. Suez Crisis and Cuba. All need to be scripted, tested and balanced, as well as loads of new artwork. You are basically developing a whole new game content, but on top of an engine designed around WW2 warfare, and trying to make it work. You absolutely must change the research set-up or everyone ends up with nukes, and you need some sort of MAD concept that holds back people from using them. And you have a real difficulty where resources are located - during the 1950s the Arab countries discovered they had loads of oil, and that changed the whole balance of economic power. Coupled with the consumer revolution with fridges, freezers, cars, TVs the world was a different place by the 1960s, and the laws don't work.

Then came the terrorists... Not just the odd anarchist who managed to write his name into the history books by blowing up an Archduke, but organised groups who realised after Munich that they could make international headlines all round the world by the most cowardly shit.

And how far do you go with the timeline? I nearly pissed myself laughing at all of the serious commentary about whether the UK should send bombers to Syria. There was a huge national debate about whether we should commit a SQUADRON, and when did a squadron become only six planes? That's not a war, that's just pretend shit. And while I'm on the subject, now it counts as a fleet to have a couple of frigging frigates!

Yeah, the world has changed a bit since 1945. For the better of course . But not good for development of an open-ended WW2 game. Beyond Korea, Hearts of Iron couldn't ever work satisfactorily. It needs a new game to do justice to the Cold War.

Thats correct, i mean tbh, your need a hybrid of victoria 2 with hoi3 for a decent cold war game, not to mention the rest of world events that would need to be scripted to some extent, but given how abstracted things are represented in hoi4 currently, i'd imagine somthing like the marshall plan could be represented by sending lend lease that when a certain amount of resources meets a critiera etc etc, obviously it's no cakewalk to implement, vietnam war could be balanced by giving extraordinary manpower to the NLF with very fast replenishment rates, and also as you mention about the game being geared toward everything leading to war, you could counter that by tricking the ai, and having world tension running in reverse, which would symoblize the cold war arms race, and if you fall behind you risk turmoil/revolutions/economical woes/lower factory output/drop in national unity. World Tension would instead be "lowered" (taking into consideration i said it's running in reverse) by acts on the world stage, so interventions/coups/adding nations to your faction would lower world tension, those who fail to act accordingly in the same manner would see there world tension rise leading to the effects i stated before, making it impossible for them to kick ww3 off, and instead play the geopolitical game of coups, intervention and supporting proxies. Has for minors not in a faction, they would not be subject to the same rule until joining a faction, making them center pieces for intervention and coups, as for middle eastern countries, being they are rich in oil, all factories could be made dependant on oil, making occuption or setting up puppet dictators in the east nesscary, and were the battle for east versus west will rage to secure the dominace of oil production, thus preserving the petrodollar or upsetting it's hegemony. Terriost factions would be a common things in the middle east & parts of africa, and that is to ensure that any factions attempting to maintain hegemony of oil production will be continuously affected at a cost to there manpower and equipment of occupying said country or supporting a proxy dictator with arms.

There just ideas of the top of my head, i don't think it's impossbile, alot of work yes, and the artwork etc so on yes.


world as changed for the better, and that was down to the concept of MAD , imo a cold war game should be about pushing your luck as far as possible without resulting to nuclear war, since in my book, you have lost the game then. A new game would be preferable though i agree, dlcs could probably only do so much and perhaps help the modders so much.

 

[jalapen0]

Just me. I don't really think a cold war game would be that fun with the clausewitz engine. Small, localized conflicts (with some exceptions), spying, economy, pushing and whooing 3rd world countries. That kind of thing needs a different kind of engine imo.

I think it works up to Korea but after that, it wouldn't really work. Any conflict directly involving majors would immediately result in full scale nuclear war. I just don't think that plays to the strength of clauswitz.


Edit: now if they highly modify it specifically fir coldwar, it could work.

 

[Caesar15]

Well the entirety of Hoi4 can be easily summed up in 3 steps: Preparing for war, fighting the war, winning the war. No more, no less. Although some post-war mechanics would fit nicely in some kind of pseudo-cold war DLC.

 

[mbarbaric]

ceded territories, converting provinces to your religion and culture, and every other means of reaping the benefits of your

 

[Bobemor]

..."Aztec Doomsday Device" dlc...

Shut up and take my money!

I think designing the peace deal could be really interesting part of the game for me in a way HOI4 is about "sphereing" not intergrating and since the game doesn't end straight after the war there is a period of this, hopefully.

 

[Number 7]

i think the biggest problem with an extended timeline is that the mechanics of war change greatly between 1945 and 1960-70. the cold war was a largely economic war without the grand armies that WW2 saw. the proxy wars like vietnam and korea and such were of a much smaller scale and also wars like vietnam are very hard for HOI to simulate. in HOI terms the US would just win within a few months as they occupied the entire country.

because the core mechanics change so drastically, i wouldnt say its very fitting to just extend the hoi timeline and expect it to be effective. i could imagine slight extension into the 50s to work though, as long as the focus stays on HOIs brand of warfare, as long as the technology tree holds up and as l ong as there is something to do.

i guess one problem you'd have is simulating a nation's desire for revenge, like a defeated UK rising from the ashes to challenge germany in WW3 in a decade with enough power to make it an interesting conflict. or the soviet union or anyone who was defeated. some kind of large conflict occuring relatively naturally would be interesting