That prestige loss by 'losing' wars seems to be the only downside of this strategy. I guess once Imperialism kicks in you'll focus a bit more on Asia/India?
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Good prediction. But as you will see in the next update, the ones near Asia are not faring as well as the ones in West Africa. That tech differential makes a big difference.
It is nifty. ANd I may use it in another run to avoid coalitions.
But it is also costly in prestige, as the formula seems to be : AE loss= Released Vassal Dev / 4 = prestige loss . So releasing a vassal who is more than 100 Dev in a war will cost more prestige than break vassalization (which costs 25 prestige) .
Usually prestige is not that important in late game as it is easy to rack up. But when you depend on it to Placate like I do here, it becomes one of the more valuable resources and needs to be managed carefully.
As you will see in next update, I end up breaking vassalization instead of releasing vasasals in a losing war to preserve Prestige.
Are you telepathic Tom? Because i was typing exactly that thought as the alert about your message came up.
Well it could be my second nature. Or just my skill in analysing pros and cons to a certain strategyAre you telepathic Tom? Because i was typing exactly that thought as the alert about your message came up.
.1650-1670: Ethiopia
I start the 1650's with an attack on Adal, using the province of Tajura as a base:
I picked this time because Adal was at war with Ethiopia who had been reduced to OPM status by its neighbors. I wanted to quickly get a border to Ethiopia before they die so I can force convert it. So I quickly overrun Adal's land while their army was sieging Ethiopia. And then I attack their army and lift the siege of the Ethiopian capital:
I then annex the southern half of Adal's land, giving me a border with Ethiopia. I declare on Ethiopia before they have a chance to peace Adal:
(immediate DOW on Ethiopia following Adal peace) .
A quick siege and Ethiopia is occupied to 100%, Because they are a single province, I am able to vassalize them and force convert them in one treaty:
(religious map of Ethiopia after vassalization of Ethiopia) .
Becaue Ethiopia was still at war with Adal when they became my vassal, I now find myself at war with Adal again. This was done on purpose, and a quick war later and I manage to feed Ethiopia all of Adal:
I then proceed to feeding all the previously conquered provinces to Ethiopia, giving them much of their former land. Ethiopia is starting to rise back from the ashes:
(DOW on Damot after I had reconstituted most of Ethiopia - inset shows growth of my Mexico CN )
And now I use the reconquest CB for Ethiopian cores against Damot. A quick war and most of Damot is annexed except for a couple of provinces occupied by Kaffan rebels:
THe Kaffa rebels then succeed in declaring independence, but are immediately swallowed by our EMpire and given to Ethiopia. I continue the wars to reconquer Ethiopia with a declaration on Alodia:
Alodia at that time was the dominant Coptic power , and had taken over all modern day Sudan ( thanks to me beating the Mamluks). But they are a paper tiger and no match for the Pope's army. Ethiopia is fed even more:
'
My Ethiopian adventures are briefly interrupted by a French CTA against Benin. I gladly accept as it is another catholic nation making inroads into the dark continent:
(CTA from France showing Africa in 1657 , with catholic countries underlined in bold yellow)
I then resume the resuscitation of Ethiopia, with a war of reconquest on the Mamluks:
This war is unfinished as the decade ended and will be completed in next chapter.
I had already played those 10 years and that chapter will be posted shortly .
I start the 1650's with an attack on Adal, using the province of Tajura as a base:
I picked this time because Adal was at war with Ethiopia who had been reduced to OPM status by its neighbors. I wanted to quickly get a border to Ethiopia before they die so I can force convert it. So I quickly overrun Adal's land while their army was sieging Ethiopia. And then I attack their army and lift the siege of the Ethiopian capital:
I then annex the southern half of Adal's land, giving me a border with Ethiopia. I declare on Ethiopia before they have a chance to peace Adal:
(immediate DOW on Ethiopia following Adal peace) .
A quick siege and Ethiopia is occupied to 100%, Because they are a single province, I am able to vassalize them and force convert them in one treaty:
(religious map of Ethiopia after vassalization of Ethiopia) .
Becaue Ethiopia was still at war with Adal when they became my vassal, I now find myself at war with Adal again. This was done on purpose, and a quick war later and I manage to feed Ethiopia all of Adal:
I then proceed to feeding all the previously conquered provinces to Ethiopia, giving them much of their former land. Ethiopia is starting to rise back from the ashes:
(DOW on Damot after I had reconstituted most of Ethiopia - inset shows growth of my Mexico CN )
And now I use the reconquest CB for Ethiopian cores against Damot. A quick war and most of Damot is annexed except for a couple of provinces occupied by Kaffan rebels:
THe Kaffa rebels then succeed in declaring independence, but are immediately swallowed by our EMpire and given to Ethiopia. I continue the wars to reconquer Ethiopia with a declaration on Alodia:
Alodia at that time was the dominant Coptic power , and had taken over all modern day Sudan ( thanks to me beating the Mamluks). But they are a paper tiger and no match for the Pope's army. Ethiopia is fed even more:
My Ethiopian adventures are briefly interrupted by a French CTA against Benin. I gladly accept as it is another catholic nation making inroads into the dark continent:
(CTA from France showing Africa in 1657 , with catholic countries underlined in bold yellow)
I then resume the resuscitation of Ethiopia, with a war of reconquest on the Mamluks:
This war is unfinished as the decade ended and will be completed in next chapter.
I had already played those 10 years and that chapter will be posted shortly .
Attachments
1660-1670: Holy Trinity
The war with Mamluks and their friends goes well. And I end up taking some choice provinces from the Sunnis, including their holy city of Mecca:
I give the bulk of the land to Ethiopia who has now grown to a good size country, from just one province 10 years ago.
Encouraged by this success , I push for more christianization of Africa with a war on friendless Tunis:
But no sooner I declare this war, than a CTA from an unexpected corner arrives:
My rival Russia had declared on the Livonian Order, who calls me as Defender of the Catholic Faith.
Hmm.... to accept or not accept? It is always tricky joining a war as a junior partner. And I was technically tied up in 2 other wars. So I had good excuses to refuse...... But for both role play and game play, I accept. What clinched it was the fact that Ingermanland province was within my colonial range ( screenshot above) , and so I could actually swipe a Baltic province that would set up a future conquest of the Livonian order .
The first result of joining against Russia was a nasty political surprise:
Those dirty Ottomans have supported the independence of my disloyal subjects. What happened , I think, is that I let the LD of my vassals creep up over 50%, not paying close attention during the Ethiopian wars (and letting Ethiopia grow like this contributed a lot) . Then the Ottoman truce expired, allowing them to support MOmbasa . And when they sensed a moment of weakness on my part - a war against Russia - they jumped.
Luckily, having my vassals in a war with me at this time meant I am safe from a declaration of independence . BUt as soon as I finish with Russia and Tunis, I could be vulnerable.
Back to the Russian war. I send my Italian army overland to Livonia, while the fleet makes a trek around Europe to the Baltic . I win a battle at Livland, followed by the successful capture of Pskov:
Meanwhile, the bulk of the Russian armies were sieging Genoese land near the Caucasus, or heading to Italy . I hurry and take advantage of the situation and capture Novgorod followed by St Petersburg:
Russia's new capital location is really vulnerable.
With their capital captured, I had enough individual WS to take Ingermanland in a separate peace. But there was not enough WS globally for Livonian order to peace out. So I had time to make my move and decide to sit on the enemy capital until my spy network in Livonia was close to 20 . Meanwhile, I finish the war with Tunis:
In 1663, I make my move. I peace out Russia, taking Ingermanland :
I then use Ingermanland to fabricate on the Livonian order and I betray them:
(DOW on Livonian order as a Russian stack heads to their capital)
It is now a race between me and Russia to see who can capture most of the Livonian land. They beat me to the capital Livland, but I manage to take the fort at Wenden:
Unfortunately for me, not taking the capital meant I could not vassalize the Livonian order with what I had. That was my initial aim , so I could end up fighting the Russians again in a defensive war. I have to settle for waiting till Russia peaced out first, then I get to vassalize them :
And with that peace treaty, I had the 3rd vassal of the trinity under my wing. I now have to turn them into a march, then core Jerusalem to get the Holy Trinity achievement. So I make an exception to my house rule for Jerusalem only and start to core it. While I wait on it, I realize that all my vassals - including Ethiopia - are in open defiance with sky high liberty desire:
As I discussed in a post earlier, I could not afford to lose a lot of prestige by releasing them in a "losing" peace treaty . So I break vassalization the old fashioned way. First with Tripoli and then Ethiopia. The only non-trade march I keep is Bulgaria ( as a reminder, my Trade Marches are Catalonia , Knights and Mombasa - they own most of the Centers of Trade feeding into my nodes)
I figured that Tripoli and Ethiopia are large enough to survive on their own . I was right about Tripoli, but apparently mistaken about Ethiopia, since they immediately get declared on by Yemen:
(Yemen+Sind declare on Ethiopia+Majeerteen)
Looking at country sizes, I was surprised at the Yemeni move. BUt when I looked at Mil tech, I discovered Yemen up to date at 21 , vs a very delayed Ethiopia at 18 . My former vassals clearly needed help. I first send them money , but as they kept losing, I interven more forcefully by sending a condottieri army on a token salary:
(My first Condottieri fight in eu4 . Note the Ethiopian flag attached to my troops, and the fact that I am at peace )
My condottieri manages to win a crucial mountain battle at Taiz and then capture the enemy capital. I advance further taking , liberating Sanaa and sieging Najran:
The war is going well, and I am strating to like the Condotteri business. The fun continues when Jerusalem is fully cored, and the Holy Trinity achievement is obtained:
ANd then things suddenly change , courtesy of Ottomans:
The Ottomans declare HOly War on poor Ethiopia.
There is no way I could save Ethiopia with half-hearted cold-war measures like money and Condottieri . I had to intervene more directly (BTW this reminded me of how the USA got dragged into Vietnam - first advisors , then special forces (Condottieri) then full war ). I had the choice to declare on Ottomans ( allied to Denmark+Yemen) or on Yemen . I chose the latter to avoid dealing with Denmark.:
(DOW on Yemen+Sind+Ottomans)
I manage to bring most of the old anti-Ottoman alliance back on board . And by fighting the Ottomans, I get the nice benefit of having Ottomans fight the disloyal subjects they were supporting earlier.
Since I started the war in a quasi-emergency state, there is no defined strategy. I just attack from whenever I had avaialble troops. And that meant a column sweeping down from Italy via Balkans to Anatolia, another column attacking north from Jerusalem, and 2 stacks attacking from the Yemen area.
(movement of my troops. Ottomans seem to concentrate on Persia mostly)
One of my targets in the war was Sind, who held cores I wanted to feed to my latest vassal Baluchistan. Unfortunately, the Ottomans decide to focus on that theatre all of a sudden and thwart my plan:
(Ottomans rebuff Papal invasion of Sind)
But this will surely be a temporary setback, as my allies have already overrun all the European provinces of Ottomans and should soon link up with my troops in teh Middle East. ANd that will be be the topic of the next chapter.
The war with Mamluks and their friends goes well. And I end up taking some choice provinces from the Sunnis, including their holy city of Mecca:
I give the bulk of the land to Ethiopia who has now grown to a good size country, from just one province 10 years ago.
Encouraged by this success , I push for more christianization of Africa with a war on friendless Tunis:
But no sooner I declare this war, than a CTA from an unexpected corner arrives:
My rival Russia had declared on the Livonian Order, who calls me as Defender of the Catholic Faith.
Hmm.... to accept or not accept? It is always tricky joining a war as a junior partner. And I was technically tied up in 2 other wars. So I had good excuses to refuse...... But for both role play and game play, I accept. What clinched it was the fact that Ingermanland province was within my colonial range ( screenshot above) , and so I could actually swipe a Baltic province that would set up a future conquest of the Livonian order .
The first result of joining against Russia was a nasty political surprise:
Those dirty Ottomans have supported the independence of my disloyal subjects. What happened , I think, is that I let the LD of my vassals creep up over 50%, not paying close attention during the Ethiopian wars (and letting Ethiopia grow like this contributed a lot) . Then the Ottoman truce expired, allowing them to support MOmbasa . And when they sensed a moment of weakness on my part - a war against Russia - they jumped.
Luckily, having my vassals in a war with me at this time meant I am safe from a declaration of independence . BUt as soon as I finish with Russia and Tunis, I could be vulnerable.
Back to the Russian war. I send my Italian army overland to Livonia, while the fleet makes a trek around Europe to the Baltic . I win a battle at Livland, followed by the successful capture of Pskov:
Meanwhile, the bulk of the Russian armies were sieging Genoese land near the Caucasus, or heading to Italy . I hurry and take advantage of the situation and capture Novgorod followed by St Petersburg:
Russia's new capital location is really vulnerable.
With their capital captured, I had enough individual WS to take Ingermanland in a separate peace. But there was not enough WS globally for Livonian order to peace out. So I had time to make my move and decide to sit on the enemy capital until my spy network in Livonia was close to 20 . Meanwhile, I finish the war with Tunis:
In 1663, I make my move. I peace out Russia, taking Ingermanland :
I then use Ingermanland to fabricate on the Livonian order and I betray them:
(DOW on Livonian order as a Russian stack heads to their capital)
It is now a race between me and Russia to see who can capture most of the Livonian land. They beat me to the capital Livland, but I manage to take the fort at Wenden:
Unfortunately for me, not taking the capital meant I could not vassalize the Livonian order with what I had. That was my initial aim , so I could end up fighting the Russians again in a defensive war. I have to settle for waiting till Russia peaced out first, then I get to vassalize them :
And with that peace treaty, I had the 3rd vassal of the trinity under my wing. I now have to turn them into a march, then core Jerusalem to get the Holy Trinity achievement. So I make an exception to my house rule for Jerusalem only and start to core it. While I wait on it, I realize that all my vassals - including Ethiopia - are in open defiance with sky high liberty desire:
As I discussed in a post earlier, I could not afford to lose a lot of prestige by releasing them in a "losing" peace treaty . So I break vassalization the old fashioned way. First with Tripoli and then Ethiopia. The only non-trade march I keep is Bulgaria ( as a reminder, my Trade Marches are Catalonia , Knights and Mombasa - they own most of the Centers of Trade feeding into my nodes)
I figured that Tripoli and Ethiopia are large enough to survive on their own . I was right about Tripoli, but apparently mistaken about Ethiopia, since they immediately get declared on by Yemen:
(Yemen+Sind declare on Ethiopia+Majeerteen)
Looking at country sizes, I was surprised at the Yemeni move. BUt when I looked at Mil tech, I discovered Yemen up to date at 21 , vs a very delayed Ethiopia at 18 . My former vassals clearly needed help. I first send them money , but as they kept losing, I interven more forcefully by sending a condottieri army on a token salary:
(My first Condottieri fight in eu4 . Note the Ethiopian flag attached to my troops, and the fact that I am at peace )
My condottieri manages to win a crucial mountain battle at Taiz and then capture the enemy capital. I advance further taking , liberating Sanaa and sieging Najran:
The war is going well, and I am strating to like the Condotteri business. The fun continues when Jerusalem is fully cored, and the Holy Trinity achievement is obtained:
ANd then things suddenly change , courtesy of Ottomans:
The Ottomans declare HOly War on poor Ethiopia.
There is no way I could save Ethiopia with half-hearted cold-war measures like money and Condottieri . I had to intervene more directly (BTW this reminded me of how the USA got dragged into Vietnam - first advisors , then special forces (Condottieri) then full war ). I had the choice to declare on Ottomans ( allied to Denmark+Yemen) or on Yemen . I chose the latter to avoid dealing with Denmark.:
(DOW on Yemen+Sind+Ottomans)
I manage to bring most of the old anti-Ottoman alliance back on board . And by fighting the Ottomans, I get the nice benefit of having Ottomans fight the disloyal subjects they were supporting earlier.
Since I started the war in a quasi-emergency state, there is no defined strategy. I just attack from whenever I had avaialble troops. And that meant a column sweeping down from Italy via Balkans to Anatolia, another column attacking north from Jerusalem, and 2 stacks attacking from the Yemen area.
(movement of my troops. Ottomans seem to concentrate on Persia mostly)
One of my targets in the war was Sind, who held cores I wanted to feed to my latest vassal Baluchistan. Unfortunately, the Ottomans decide to focus on that theatre all of a sudden and thwart my plan:
(Ottomans rebuff Papal invasion of Sind)
But this will surely be a temporary setback, as my allies have already overrun all the European provinces of Ottomans and should soon link up with my troops in teh Middle East. ANd that will be be the topic of the next chapter.
Attachments
There definitely comes a price for staying tall and having a lot of vassals and subjects, but you managed those very well in the past till now, and it will only be a temporary setback. Once the Ottomans are done, they'll sure be taken care of.
I think EU4 (and other PDS games) actually do a pretty good job at simulating how you can get dragged into things you never expected. I remember one EU2 where, as Castille/Spain I ended up taking all of France south of the Loire in purely defensive wars.
I think Loire R. could have been a physical boundary IRL. Didn't the Visigoths at one point rule both Iberia and Gaul south of the Loire? so you had historical precedent and justification in your campign.
1670-1680: Thinning the herd
I ended the last decade in a war on Yemen+Sind+Ottomans to defend Ethiopia. My efforts to conquer Sind first finally succeed when the Ottomans had to withdraw troops to defend their own lands. I manage to take all of Sind's forts, forcing them to return all Baluchistani cores to my catholic vassal:
(peace with Sind )
I immediately send my 7 missionaries to conver the Baluchistani land . Then I focus on conquering more Ottoman land , which I give my allies since I am suffering of high liberty desire due to vassal development being high. As long as I give the land to catholics, I am achieving my primary aim:
With Yemen all alone now, I can impose harsh terms on them. I take plenty of land ( limited only by WS and Over-extension) , which I will later release as Hasaa . Ethiopia also ends their war with Yemen, taking several provinces:
These victories in favor of catholic nations reassure me that the strategy of releasing countries such as I did with Ethiopia will be successful, as long as I have the Defender of the Faith CB to protect them. And Imperialism is just around the corner in any case. So I think I can start to let go of my numerous vassals, both to improve Liberty Desire and to trim the over-limit relations.
I let go of both Bulgaria and Baluchistan . I also break alliances with Genoa and Persia. This improves my diplo limit penalty by 4 MP per month. But I still had too many diplo relations . At a minimum I wanted to keep Catalonia, Knights and Mombasa as my trade marches, and France as my main ally. That left only one free spot . So Livonian and Teutonic have to go . But because they are tiny, it is better for me to release them in a losing peace than directly . I therefore declare on Denmark + Ottomans:
(DOW on Denmark, insets show stackwipes of Ottoman armies, and Baluchistan getting declared on )
I focus all my effort in the war on the Ottomans . I siege almost all their forts and manage two stackwipes against them . I then peace them out , giving a good chunk of Croatia to my ally Bohemia:
Another war, another chunk out of Ottomans . By giving croatia to Bohemia, I am hoping Rebels will succeed in Austria, Wallachia or Serbia which are now exclaves for the turks.
With my objective against Ottomans achieved, I now "lose" to Denmark and release Livonian Order, Teutonic Order and Hasaa. I then turn around to help Baluchistan. But while I waited for my Diplomats to return, and before I could join them in the war via "Enforce Peace" , they sign a bad treaty with Afghanistan:
(Baluchistan losing most of what I gave them - inset shows the peace I made with Denmark)
I was bummed about being too late to help catholic Baluchistan. But then I get another chance, when Delhi declares on them . I quickly ally them , and then get called in a defensive war:
I am currently getting ready to fight that war ( have to transport troops and all that). But I should be able to win it and maybe get Baluchistan to drive catholicisim a little deeper into Indian .
The current world religious map:
Europe , America and Africa are now majority catholic, with only isolated pockets of heathen and heretics still present. Asia, on the other hand, has still to see the light.
I ended the last decade in a war on Yemen+Sind+Ottomans to defend Ethiopia. My efforts to conquer Sind first finally succeed when the Ottomans had to withdraw troops to defend their own lands. I manage to take all of Sind's forts, forcing them to return all Baluchistani cores to my catholic vassal:
(peace with Sind )
I immediately send my 7 missionaries to conver the Baluchistani land . Then I focus on conquering more Ottoman land , which I give my allies since I am suffering of high liberty desire due to vassal development being high. As long as I give the land to catholics, I am achieving my primary aim:
With Yemen all alone now, I can impose harsh terms on them. I take plenty of land ( limited only by WS and Over-extension) , which I will later release as Hasaa . Ethiopia also ends their war with Yemen, taking several provinces:
These victories in favor of catholic nations reassure me that the strategy of releasing countries such as I did with Ethiopia will be successful, as long as I have the Defender of the Faith CB to protect them. And Imperialism is just around the corner in any case. So I think I can start to let go of my numerous vassals, both to improve Liberty Desire and to trim the over-limit relations.
I let go of both Bulgaria and Baluchistan . I also break alliances with Genoa and Persia. This improves my diplo limit penalty by 4 MP per month. But I still had too many diplo relations . At a minimum I wanted to keep Catalonia, Knights and Mombasa as my trade marches, and France as my main ally. That left only one free spot . So Livonian and Teutonic have to go . But because they are tiny, it is better for me to release them in a losing peace than directly . I therefore declare on Denmark + Ottomans:
(DOW on Denmark, insets show stackwipes of Ottoman armies, and Baluchistan getting declared on )
I focus all my effort in the war on the Ottomans . I siege almost all their forts and manage two stackwipes against them . I then peace them out , giving a good chunk of Croatia to my ally Bohemia:
Another war, another chunk out of Ottomans . By giving croatia to Bohemia, I am hoping Rebels will succeed in Austria, Wallachia or Serbia which are now exclaves for the turks.
With my objective against Ottomans achieved, I now "lose" to Denmark and release Livonian Order, Teutonic Order and Hasaa. I then turn around to help Baluchistan. But while I waited for my Diplomats to return, and before I could join them in the war via "Enforce Peace" , they sign a bad treaty with Afghanistan:
(Baluchistan losing most of what I gave them - inset shows the peace I made with Denmark)
I was bummed about being too late to help catholic Baluchistan. But then I get another chance, when Delhi declares on them . I quickly ally them , and then get called in a defensive war:
I am currently getting ready to fight that war ( have to transport troops and all that). But I should be able to win it and maybe get Baluchistan to drive catholicisim a little deeper into Indian .
The current world religious map:
Europe , America and Africa are now majority catholic, with only isolated pockets of heathen and heretics still present. Asia, on the other hand, has still to see the light.
Attachments
AFAIK that only works if they're in Europe, but as you say Imperialism will make things a lot easier. You already achieved a lot despite your tall restrictions.