On the Subject of Complexity

[Chaplain]

I am wondering how many people share my view of HOI:

I don't want to "figure out" the game in the sense of determining which combination of cruizergs guarantees victory, or how to trick the AI into advancing out of Gibraltar so I can capture it, or how to conquer the world with Romania. I don't want to count beans until I know exactly how to defeat the AI (or anyone else).

I want to have an historical RPG experience. I want to make decisions in the game as if reading the history of the period. I want to re-create the joy of exploring Shirer or reading Churchill's memoirs of the war for the first time, only this time things are going a little different.

For this reason, the Paradox formula of maximum complexity and a simple interface is perfect. I gotta believe I'm not the only one ... ?

 

[unmerged(135152)]

There is no escaping from the feeling of "beating the game".

No matter how much you try and play historical, how much of a sense of accomplishment you get from your first succesful operation Barbarossa, when you come to these forums and read your first "I conquered the world as Nepal" - thread, you'll fall into despair. That's not to say you can no longer enjoy the game, but it takes away the "Willing disbelief" or whatnot that is associated with enjoying works of art, and of fiction to be precise. After that you start setting house rules, no more rushing mechanized corps or abusing the AI in this respect. Then the patches and mods start to arrive. You get your glimmer of hope. But, alas, before long you get used to the new system and it is all plain again.

Computer games, like all items of luxury, elevate us from the dullness of our lives only to make us fall back into the cold harsh reality one day. Like a young child indulging herself with candy only to realize that the joy was not to last, so will we realize one day that the most complex and challenging game is but a piece of code. On that day we see beyond the graphics and the interface, understand how little it takes to capture our interest and swear that we shall never be fooled again. Until the next time, that is.



Still, it beats daytime television!

 

[Cardus]

I am wondering how many people share my view of HOI:

I don't want to "figure out" the game in the sense of determining which combination of cruizergs guarantees victory, or how to trick the AI into advancing out of Gibraltar so I can capture it, or how to conquer the world with Romania. I don't want to count beans until I know exactly how to defeat the AI (or anyone else).

I want to have an historical RPG experience. I want to make decisions in the game as if reading the history of the period. I want to re-create the joy of exploring Shirer or reading Churchill's memoirs of the war for the first time, only this time things are going a little different.

For this reason, the Paradox formula of maximum complexity and a simple interface is perfect. I gotta believe I'm not the only one ... ?

Hi Chaplain, some of us share with you the same wishes. If you like you can join our group. Please see below the link.

 

[unmerged(41649)]

I thought the whole point of computer games was to get good at them. You get good by understanding the entire system and spotting its weaknesses and then optimizing your path to success. That's why I play at least. I like the challenge of figuring out a new problem, but I also like the accomplishment of mastering that problem.

 

[unmerged(71032)]

That's not to say you can no longer enjoy the game, but it takes away the "Willing disbelief" or whatnot that is associated with enjoying works of art, and of fiction to be precise. After that you start setting house rules, no more rushing mechanized corps or abusing the AI in this respect.

You got to admit though, that playing "normally" you will never even consider cruizergs or infantry rushes as valid tactics. Most likely you will follow historical paths based on your understanding of WWII history - of course, with some modifications to pursue "what if" scenarios, but that's it.

What you describe as "setting house rules" is default game strategy for many people - they don't set those rules, they just follow them instinctively. Only if you are have this powergamer gene or your knowledge of WWII is so low that you are not binded by "obvious stuff" you design your tactics by pure game rules, not percieved WWII rules that game is supposed to follow.

So yes, I somehow follow Chaplain sentiment. AAR and storytelling is huge part of Paradox experience for me. If I wanted balanced "strategy" gaming, I would be playing Starcraft.

 

[unmerged(71032)]

I thought the whole point of computer games was to get good at them.

Nope, games are supposed to bring relaxation and good mood to the users. Thing is, depending on your character, there are different things that provide it - some people need the feeling of "beating the unbeatable", some people like social experience, some simply enjoy the ride to the end.

 

[UniversalWolf]

Nope, games are supposed to bring relaxation and good mood to the users.

I agree. "Getting good" at a computer game is inevitable if you play it enough, so there isn't much point.

With Paradox games you can also learn things about history because they cause you to look at it from a different point of view.

I'm in the camp of people who want the game to be very, very complicated, but have a simple, elegant interface. The UI is of utmost importance to keep the game playable as the complexity increases. I think its importance is underestimated. Some think Victoria was too complicated, but I think her problems had more to do with the clumsy UI than with the game's complexity.

 

[unmerged(52507)]

A very nice philosophical HOI thread! I have to say that i love the flavour, but also don't mind a bit of ahistorical play. When playing the micros and minors, the only way to enjoy it is to try and create a bit of an empire. I think that the devs are well tuned into this balance.

 

[unmerged(34050)]

Agree very much Chaplain!

I love alt-history and arguing on history message boards "what if?"

So if HOI3 lets me see "what if the Royal Navy had modernized the Hood and built 16" gun BBs," or "what if the Luftwaffe built strategic bombers," I'm happy.

Building all-DD fleets or spamming militia or calculating optimal IC-day expenditure doesn't interest.

 

[rhynoclemmis]

I am wondering how many people share my view of HOI:
....
For this reason, the Paradox formula of maximum complexity and a simple interface is perfect. I gotta believe I'm not the only one ... ?

Seconded.

 

[Cpack]

definately!!!

But I also like the possiblity to do the other way, even rarly

 

[Peekee]

Nope, games are supposed to bring relaxation and good mood to the users. Thing is, depending on your character, there are different things that provide it - some people need the feeling of "beating the unbeatable", some people like social experience, some simply enjoy the ride to the end.

You never played counter strike did you

Why is this thread turning into a discussion on the psychology of playing games?

There will always be those who want to micro manage, play the game and beat it. There are those who play act out their own story. And a whole bunch of people who play for other reasons... PI games manage to cater to many different styles of play.

 

[juv95hrn]

Just make it possible to strengthen AI nations of your choice so that the human player can have a challenge even if playing a major.