On the Flag of the Rebels

[unmerged(5073)]

Hey!! What is up with the rebel flag anyway? The red/black flag is the flag of Anarcho-Syndicalism. The flag is flipped (horizonally) the opposite of what Anarcho-Syndicalism is, but close enough nonetheless.

How dare you us it for all rebels in Colonial times. The Religious, Capitalist, and Nationalist rebellions that took place were far from Anarchism. One cannot even call it anarchy, since they were rebellions or civil wars. Anarchy simply is no authority, but there always was authority, just depending whose side you were on.

So pull that flag and instead use the flags of the rebels (so if Burgandy rebels, use their flag, etc.).

It is cool that Paradox would throw in a little plug for Anarcho-Syndicalism though.

In Solidarity,
Josef Weidt

http://www.anarchosyndicalism.org

 

[unmerged(4945)]

Well what should it be? Id say an all red flag, but I think a nation may already have that...

 

[State Machine]

If it is "flipped", then it isn't the same flag. It would be a nice joke, though, if Paradox did that on purpose.

I like the idea of using the "revolters" flag (when available) instead of the "rebel" flag.

 

[AndrewT]

Originally posted by Weidt
Hey!! The flag is flipped (horizonally) the opposite of what Anarcho-Syndicalism is, but close enough nonetheless.

The Religious, Capitalist, and Nationalist rebellions that took place were far from Anarchism.

That's the whole point - the flag is the opposite of the A-S flag, and the revolters are the opposite of Anarchism. I don't see you have anything to complain about.

 

[unmerged(5073)]

Well, actually it is the same flag, just depends from what side you'd be looking at the flag. Just the like USA flag, if you flip is horizonally, it is still the USA flag, just viewing the opposite side of the flag (like it on a flagpole).

But yea, use the flag of the revolting province if one is available. Red is taken, plus that would imply Communism. Black is also taken I think, than again would be Anarchism. Thus I say use a simple White flag to express nothingness - use this for revolting provinces with no provincal flag. So if you annex Poland and than revolt sparks in any of the provinces, the flags would be of Poland. If a city in Africa revolts than be a generic white flag saying "look at me, you don't control this!".

Josef Weidt

 

[Steph]

The idea of using the national flag is nice, but it can be done only if the rebels belong to country. But that country does not exists yet. And what would happen if to rebels groups from 2 different "country" are in the same province? Battle? Or would all rebels be allied? In that case, what happens when they free their provinces? Are they still allied?
And do they rebel because they want their independance (and using their flag is ok then), or simply because they want more religious freedom (why would they use a flag then, instead of a religious symbol?)

 

[State Machine]

Good point, Steph. Rebellions are not necessarily seeking independance, but seek to right some wrong. A generic rebel flag seems the most appropriate.

 

[unmerged(3627)]

If they're revolting to form a separate country, they do get their own flag, once the country turns up. While they're just rebel scum, they don't have any flag of their own - everybody would refuse to recognise it even if they used one. And Red/Black goes back to way before syndico-anarchist movements - they've always been the colours of rebellion. That's chiefly why syndico-anarchists, communists, nazis et al wound up choosing them.

 

[unmerged(2160)]

And in game play terms the flag for me is easily recognisable, national flag carrying rebels or white flag rebels (We Surrender?) would just complicate things and take up space that could be put to better use!

 

[Mohe]

I think you should be proud, after all the Rebels of EU are pursuing revolution in their own circumstances. A peasant rising against the landlords, a knight revolting against his liege, a town revolting to defend it's liberty against a tyrant. A people rising up against foreign oppressors. Aren't these all revolutionary acts? Aren't they all challenging authority, challenging as system that deprives them of their dignity and liberty?

 

[unmerged(2160)]

Lots of rebellions weren't as idealistic as that though, foreign powers often encouraged rebellions in the EU time period to weaken enemies or increase there own prestige. Russia against the Ottoman Empire for instance!

 

[Jools]

Black is also taken I think, than again would be Anarchism.

Black is freedom, mate. And it also depends if it's ultra libertarian anarchy or Anarcho Communism(yeck!). Anyway black is freedom.


As for flags for rebels, I also prefer a more ambitious model. This would make it easier for you to decide how to solve the problems.

Nationalistic rebellion- flag of nation
Religious Rebellion-Cross, Crescent etc...
Peasant Uprest- Anarcho Syndicalism flag ))
Domestic Uprest(gentry, peasant and burgeios)-hmmm... red white and blue? - for 18th century?

A rebellion's aim is to declare an independant nation or to overthrow the government whilst peasants will just loiter showing how unhappy they are (maybe demand change of policy).

Maybe you could have the option to negotiate with rebels and uprisers (i.e. "We will go home and leave our weapons if you lower taxes & change Orthodox tolerance from 2 to 4). More interaction with rebels would be since you can stop a long tiresome civil war at it's roots. Imagine if england gave the americans more autonomy and more rights when they heard they were rebelling?

What about rebels allying with themselves??? Methinks the computer AI should solve this. For example say it is 1796 and Poland is partitions. A national rebellion starts in Posen(prussia), Masovia(russia) and Krakow(austria). The computer will determine if these rebels share common religious beleifs, language group and idealogy (in this case all of them share common characteristics and therefore the chance of a rebel alliance that will declare war on all three nations is more possible, say 75%).
Also for example, Prussia, Russia and Austria should have an option to sign a counter rebel pact, and will cooperate militarly in order to destroy the rebellion.

Some of these things are too complicated, methinks, for EU2, maybe we'll see them in EU3???

Just sharing some thoughts.

 

[Steph]

Jools, I like your latest post. Good idea to introduce several kind of rebels. That way rebellion may not only be quailed by force.
Nationalists should be, as their goal is to gain independance (except you agree to "free" the country).
For religious unrest, rebels could disappear if you change your state religion or tolerance,etc.

 

[unmerged(5205)]

White is the surreder flag so dont use that one.I like the idea or using the countries flag that would only work if the rebellion is hardwired to take place and they have a flag setup for it.I think you should use an all black flag

 

[unmerged(3627)]

Originally posted by Jools


Black is freedom, mate.

Says who? Go look in a good book of flags, and you'll find black representing a couple of dozen different things, depending on who invented the flag. I'm pretty sure the Nazis didn't adopt a black swastika because of black representing freedom...

 

[Vulture]

Black one is not taken. Golden Horde was replaced by a fancier shield in latest IGC's. I am sure the correct shield will be used in EU II, so black if free for use.
and heyesey, not all swastikas were black

 

[unmerged(3627)]

Originally posted by VultureGFF
Black one is not taken. Golden Horde was replaced by a fancier shield in latest IGC's. I am sure the correct shield will be used in EU II, so black if free for use.
and heyesey, not all swastikas were black

The one on the flag was. Incidentally I hope we aren't going to be stuck with all those incredibly-ornate-and-totally-unintelligible IGC Asian flags in EU2. They're ugly.

 

[unmerged(3571)]

Originally posted by Steph
Jools, I like your latest post. Good idea to introduce several kind of rebels. That way rebellion may not only be quailed by force.
Nationalists should be, as their goal is to gain independance (except you agree to "free" the country).
For religious unrest, rebels could disappear if you change your state religion or tolerance,etc.

Me too, I think this is an excellent idea - 5 stars coming up

 

[Demetrios]

Originally posted by Heyesey


The one on the flag was. Incidentally I hope we aren't going to be stuck with all those incredibly-ornate-and-totally-unintelligible IGC Asian flags in EU2. They're ugly.

As opposed to those incredibly-ornate-and-totally-unintelligible flags from Europe? If I didn't know what was actually supposed to be on the Holstein shield, I would have no idea what it represented. And some of the eagles and lions are really hard to make out on some of the other ones...

 

[unmerged(2364)]

Maybe they should use the red flag of Soviet republic and Red army