On Stockpiles & Bases.

[Alex_brunius]

Okay. Now most of us didn't like how stockpiles were unlimited and capital only, and how air/naval bases had little to no use.

Here is the suggestion, parts of it borrowed from others and various ancient suggestions:

- Stockpiles are limited to 100 days of Industry usage and located exactly where your industry is. 10 IC in a province means you can store maximum of 10x(daily consumption)x100 = 500 rares, 1000metal & 2000energy in this province. If this feels low (300IC total = 15k rares) Then 100 days of production worth could be added to stockpile limits. Stockpiled in provinces where resources are produced ofcourse.

- Oil stockpile limits are determined by your number/size of airbases/navalbases and conversion tech and located at these bases or your industry from IC conversion. A suggestion could be 100oil per navalbase size 50 per airbase size and 100days worth of converted oil where your IC is.

- ALL these resources are subjected to be bombed or captured by enemies (50% captured, 50% destroyed just like infra).

- Oil will always stockpiled in the base where you have the most units first, when this base is full it will be sent on to other bases in order of importance (garrision size).

- Base size should affect repairtime aswell (not just reorg time as in HoI2).

- Base size affect how many divisions you can station here, (1aircraft, 3ships per size) aswell as how many divisions can board transports (should take time).

- Each airbase (with aircrafts stationed) will lift fog of war for you in all provinces you can range but your enemy can't, wartime only. If both can range it who has most numbers aircraft in range of the province determine who will get lifted fog of war (fighters/interceptors count as two for this purpose).

These changes are to make bases important targets to defend, attack, garrision and expand. Aswell as limit the prewar buildups of stockpiles.

 

[Shadow Master]

Uhg! I hate to say it, but most of the things you are suggesting would not be something I would want to see in the game.

Okay. Now most of us didn't like how stockpiles were unlimited and capital only, and how air/naval bases had little to no use. Here is the suggestion, parts of it borrowed from others and various ancient suggestions:

I didn't really mind the way the stockpiles were done, even as flawed as it was, but I did mind the way the transportation of supplies was done.

Stockpiles are limited to 100 days of Industry usage and located exactly where your industry is. 10 IC in a province means you can store maximum of 10x(daily consumption)x100 = 500 rares, 1000metal & 2000energy in this province. If this feels low (300IC total = 15k rares) Then 100 days of production worth could be added to stockpile limits. Stockpiled in provinces where resources are produced ofcourse.

I don't have any suggestions for the capitol stockpile only except to possibly remove the nations resource stockpile from the map entirely, that is, abstract the entire issue and remove the exploitation there of. Even I don't really like that idea...

As far as a nation being limited to an arbitrary limit for resource stockpiling, I believe that would be as worthless as the current TC situation (as a player would be having to deal with yet another arbitrary limit about which they can do nothing). The solution (as I see it) would need to incorporate an added element where a player could choose to expand their storage capacity beyond what they would start with (what you suggest) by building such as province improvements, (thus causing them to use IC days to do so). That is what I meant in that other thread.

Oil stockpile limits are determined by your number/size of airbases/navalbases and conversion tech and located at these bases or your industry from IC conversion. A suggestion could be 100oil per navalbase size 50 per airbase size and 100days worth of converted oil where your IC is. ALL these resources are subjected to be bombed or captured by enemies (50% captured, 50% destroyed just like infra).

I've not given this matter much thought, so I'll just ask why you want this?

Oil will always stockpiled in the base where you have the most units first, when this base is full it will be sent on to other bases in order of importance (garrison size). Base size should affect repair time as well (not just re-org time as in HoI2). Base size affect how many divisions you can station here, (1aircraft, 3ships per size) as well as how many divisions can board transports (should take time).

No. IMO, there isn't any reason why you need to have a limit of how many ships/planes can be based somewhere. If your suggestions were enacted and sizes were still restricted, I could see loosing ships/planes for lack of bases. And with the construction times for bases (especially naval) being what they are, even removing the number cap of how many can be built in a province really wouldn't do any good.

Each airbase (with aircraft stationed) will lift fog of war for you in all provinces you can range but your enemy can't, wartime only. If both can range it who has most numbers aircraft in range of the province determine who will get lifted fog of war (fighters/interceptors count as two for this purpose).

Why not lift fog of war in any province that a nations air force can reach in daylight/good visibility conditions? This could work as an abstracted model for the recon aircraft from all nations, some will die even without interception, and some will make it back despite every thing that can be done (in other words, no matter how many fighters you have over a province, some recon is still going to make it back to their base). A better model would allow for a scaled approach to this, but its lowest level should still be superior to ground level Intel alone, I would think.

 

[juv95hrn]

I agree that bases should be more important than what they were although they do play a significant role considering how fast you will repair your units and how fast they regain organization. Maybe what needs to be done is a proper overhaul of what size bases were where, something that feels rather unbalanced in earlier versions of HOI.

Basing limitation according to size seems like a nice idea and easily enough implemented.

I also agree that you should be able to stockpile supply and oil in certain locations so as to prepare for sieges but risk that they will get destroyed or captured.

 

[Alex_brunius]

but I did mind the way the transportation of supplies was done.

I didn't like this either but this got nothing to do with what I suggest here. We could discuss this is another thread.

As far as a nation being limited to an arbitrary limit for resource stockpiling, I believe that would be as worthless as the current TC situation (as a player would be having to deal with yet another arbitrary limit about which they can do nothing).

I think neither of these limits are something you "can't do anything about". But rather historical limitations that you have to plan and build your armed forces around. I would rather see you able to improve your TC via building more trains & trucks. But Stockpiles are really HUGE. You cannot store ALL steel your entire nations industry consume just think about the cost to transport millions & millions of tons back and forth as well as building & guarding places where its safe from rust, oxygen, theives and other threats.

I've not given this matter much thought, so I'll just ask why you want this?

Firstly: Its more realistic to have oil storage modeled this way. That goes for all storage btw. Resources ARE stored where they are either produced or where they are needed, NOT at the capial or somewhere else in huge governmet built silos...
Secondly: With oil beeing such an important resource it would really make bases important, something I think everyone would want?
Third: You would always have the oil where you need it (where your navy/airforce is). Ofcourse it would still need to be transported there from production places via convoys if its overseas.

IMO, there isn't any reason why you need to have a limit of how many ships/planes can be based somewhere.

Okay I can agree with you about ships but I would still like to have airbases limit your airforce. How about not limit the number of based ships/aircraft but rather the number allowed to operate (have a active mission with that base as homebase)
This would still bring alot of good things.
- It would force you to spread out the airforce (we all hate to lose the entire airforce when the enemy captures an airfield).
- It would make expanding I.E. pacific island bases important. Right now its not really, a death stack of 50fighters will 5org each will own everything in their path. How can you fit 5000 aircraft in a single small island btw?

What you would lose however is this:
- It would force you to prioritize and think. Do I need another bomber wing or fighter wing in this base? I don't have room for both.

I wouldn't worry about overcrowding your airbases, most nations could expand their starting airforce 10 or at least 5fold before facing this problem in original HoI2, With even more provinces (and probably more airfields) I really doubt this would be a problem at all.

Why not lift fog of war in any province that a nations air force can reach in daylight/good visibility conditions?.

Good idea, recon can report home with radio aswell and find stuff even if they don't make it home.
Other cool stuff that could be added is actually small cheap recon airwings that can lift fog of war of an entire zone each but needs to have an active mission and can be intercepted. Could be AI controlled mostly or very simple to use/order.
Or have enemy radar somehow influense where you can recon aswell, Radar would make picking up and intercepting single aircrafts possible.

I agree that bases should be more important than what they were although they do play a significant role considering how fast you will repair your units and how fast they regain organization.

Nope bases doesn't do anything to help your units repair faster, however infrastructure does. This is an ancient myth.
The only thing bigger bases in HoI2 will do is make reorg faster.

 

[Shadow Master]

Good post, I'll edit my replies in after time to digest. Good stuff here.

I have some thoughts about bases in this thread Here and would like your opinion, specifically upon the idea of no limit to a provinces ability to hold a larger airbase.

Another old thread Here that could use a bit of input.

But Stockpiles are really HUGE. You cannot store ALL steel your entire nations industry consume just think about the cost to transport millions & millions of tons back and forth as well as building & guarding places where its safe from rust, oxygen, thieves and other threats.

I recently photographed a landfill near where I live. Lets say even I was flabbergasted at the size. Not yet being an engineer, I don't know how much production would be needed to enable to store resources. I do believe that it can be done, naturally, but just at a price. What I mean by an arbitrary limit that the player "can't do anything about" is where a limit is imposed where no direct solution is allowed. See the Oil thread above for an example. TC is another that you covered, and I hit on that area in Kanitatlan's nice thread

Firstly: Its more realistic to have oil storage modeled this way. That goes for all storage btw. Resources ARE stored where they are either produced or where they are needed, NOT at the capital or somewhere else in huge government built silos...
Secondly: With oil being such an important resource it would really make bases important, something I think everyone would want?
Third: You would always have the oil where you need it (where your navy/airforce is). Of course it would still need to be transported there from production places via convoys if its overseas.

That is actually an interesting point, and a good one I think.

Okay I can agree with you about ships but I would still like to have airbases limit your airforce. How about not limit the number of based ships/aircraft but rather the number allowed to operate (have a active mission with that base as homebase)
This would still bring allot of good things.
- It would force you to spread out the airforce (we all hate to lose the entire airforce when the enemy captures an airfield).

I direct your attention to the links above for an answer here. Briefly, small pacific islands notwithstanding, a province should be allowed to have as large an air or naval base as a player wants to pay to put there. If small islands are included in the game, then they should be the exception (those provinces get restricted base sizes) rather than the norm.

Any thoughts?

 

[Alex_brunius]

Any thoughts?

Most of your suggestions are quite interresting. I especially like the different level of bases approach that unlock more functions such as repair facilitys exc. Aswell as the unlimited base size approach.

I would like to add an alternative way to solve the Stockpile problem that have been discussed before and thats attrition. A small % of your stockpiled resource is lost each day and thus an effective max stockpiled is achived in a pretty realistic fashion (based on production though, not consumtion).

An attrition of 0.1% per day would enable 1000 days worth of surplus to be stored. The negative with this system is that it discurages trading since you need those resources yourself to replace lost ones.

Postivie is that it rewards efficient resourcing with low stockpiles in a pretty realistic fashion. And that it auto balances world resource supplies.