On Italian Formation and Sardinia Piedmont

[aGamingKnight]

Italy is of course one of the most fun areas to play in, in Victoria 3, due to being able to form Italy. However, we all know they will most likely make a DLC for more flavour but currently I think they should look into some of the things that can be changed in the current version of the game.

As many have mentioned, Sardinia - Piedmont (SDP) is much harder to form Italy than Two Sicilies, nevertheless it can still be done somewhat easily if you know what your doing before 1860. Despite this though forming Italy is quite tedious with the Risorgimento custom unions, as every state you absorb will give infamy., and if you are SDP, you will most likely have to go to war with Two Sicilies TWICE. First to get them to renounce their potential Italian leadership, and second to unify Italy. Trouble arrives with the second war, as the unifying gives a much more massive infamy (I had 55 from this single QB), as a result, all other great powers such as France are highly likely to intervene. At this point SDP isn't able to stand up to a two front war and against a GP, making this last war and thus unifying Italy incredibly difficult. On a similar note I have never seen SDP ai ever form. One possible fix for this is either making it so that GP cannot intervene in Unification wars which is a more radical option, or removing/vastly reducing infamy gained from unifying. Personally I like the second option, it doesn't make much sense IMO that any country would gain infamy to unite their culture group.

Another thing I have noticed is that Malta is not a state which counts towards unification, I believe this is an oversight and can and should be changed. historically Malta wasn't included in Italian unification but I see no reason as to why it should not as this is plausible.

Lastly SDP owns Nice a small part of the Provence state, however it doesn't count as a homeland? I thought this was a little strange, I don't know if it makes a massive difference. But perhaps it is another point of discussion along with the Savoy state and possible events that can be added in flavour later.

Thanks everyone for reading, please, I would love to hear what you have to say on this, and I'm sure Paradox would too. I personally love playing unification countries, I find it more fun and Italy is a really awesome one. I'm sure Paradox will bring more events to this region but in the meantime some simple changes could possibly be made.
P.S. Not sure if my memory is failing me, but when you form Italy I believe you do not gain "return state" cores on the Austrian possessions of Italy, that should probably be changed too, maybe also adding them for Malta and Corsica.

 

[CaesarVincens]

You can gain claims on the Italian homelands, but it requires already owning 14 of them, out of 17...

The infamy gain from the unification event is definitely too much, and the German version had its infamy removed in 1.1, so not inconceivable the Italian event might be changed.

Adding Malta and Corsica as potential unification would be good for the alt-history, and given that they are owned by Britain and France, not likely to matter much.

Nice can't count as a Italian homeland unless all of Provence does, so perhaps if there is a rework of state regions.

 

[Nirmara]

The unification mechanics for both Germany and Italy are in need of a rework which I doubt will be part of a DLC. Way too often, the unification process is just frustrating due to other power intervening for dubious reasons or anti-climatic. Something around showing the other nations that you are "worthy" of unifying the nation by doing actions such as reclaiming foreign-held territory or being a champion of liberalism would fit far more than the current system.

You can avoid going to war with the Two Sicilies a second time by improving relations with them and bankrolling them. It might take a little longer but I find it better than risking yet another costly war that comes with a lot of infamy.

I believe the event giving you a claim is currently bugged since it's triggering way too late. Right now, the best way to get those claims against Austria is to start a war with a cheap CB like humiliation and add CBs to release the Italian nations so that you can get them to join your custom union and annex them via the event. You'll still have to pay the 10 infamy from the event but it's far better than the 20+ require to take Lombardia or Venitia.

 

[aGamingKnight]

The unification mechanics for both Germany and Italy are in need of a rework which I doubt will be part of a DLC. Way too often, the unification process is just frustrating due to other power intervening for dubious reasons or anti-climatic. Something around showing the other nations that you are "worthy" of unifying the nation by doing actions such as reclaiming foreign-held territory or being a champion of liberalism would fit far more than the current system.

You can avoid going to war with the Two Sicilies a second time by improving relations with them and bankrolling them. It might take a little longer but I find it better than risking yet another costly war that comes with a lot of infamy.

I believe the event giving you a claim is currently bugged since it's triggering way too late. Right now, the best way to get those claims against Austria is to start a war with a cheap CB like humiliation and add CBs to release the Italian nations so that you can get them to join your custom union and annex them via the event. You'll still have to pay the 10 infamy from the event but it's far better than the 20+ require to take Lombardia or Venitia.

Thanks, for your comment! Do you know if after forming Italy you are still able to get the Risorgimento customs union event? Liberating the other Italian states under Austria's rule then annexing them through that method sounds great! Additionally would that work with Corsica?

 

[CaesarVincens]

Thanks, for your comment! Do you know if after forming Italy you are still able to get the Risorgimento customs union event? Liberating the other Italian states under Austria's rule then annexing them through that method sounds great! Additionally would that work with Corsica?

The Risorgimento customs union event can trigger each month as long as you neighbor a North or South Italian primary culture country in your customs union, which is your subject or independent, is a minor power or less in rank and has amicable or better relations.

Corsica wouldn't work as its not North or South Italian primary culture (same for Malta).

 

[Dayvit78]

I recently came back to the game. I started as France. In less than 10 years, the AI formed Italy (most of it), despite me having a defensive pact with Papal States and a good relation with Piedmont. There was no infamy. There was no notification. I just realized, there's Italy? Like what? Does the AI not get infamy? Does the game not notify you of these things?

 

[aGamingKnight]

I recently came back to the game. I started as France. In less than 10 years, the AI formed Italy (most of it), despite me having a defensive pact with Papal States and a good relation with Piedmont. There was no infamy. There was no notification. I just realized, there's Italy? Like what? Does the AI not get infamy? Does the game not notify you of these things?

In extremely rare circumstances, if the player is SDP, and Two Sicilies is just doing absolutely terrible you can easily form Italy as everyone will support you. This is basically what happens but in reverse for the ai. SDP ai has no bearing on what to do to compete against Two Siciles and they will always form it via the Unify Italy button in Culture tab when everyone supports them.

So yes firstly, there is no infamy for the uniting country when all Italian states support them as a candidate, true for both ai and player. The thing is just as the player you are rarely able to do that. And Secondly, I agree I've noticed the game currently doesn't notify you of big events such as unifications, or maybe I just accidentally instantly close as I usually do xD.

 

[Hansatron]

I've had many games as Austria watching the AI form Italy by 1841. (The earliest I've seen was mid 1840.) It is sometimes so fast that you don't even have enough time to subjugate SDP or Papal States, and then have the truce cooldown to annex them. [So maybe I was trying to recreate the HRE, sue me.] I've checked the italian states before, and only SDP can actually achieve this that fast - they are the only italian state that starts with Nationalism available to research. Two Sicilies has to get mass communications first.

But usually Italy forms for me in the mid 1840s ish if it's going to form - which is probably TS.

I like that the AI will form nations, but for the sake of variety they should probably not have the relevant AI nations (Prussia is also extremely guilty of this) beeline nationalism every single game. Having played italy before, I also think that there should be some leniency on technology - whichever state unifies a nation should inherit the techs that the other states have that it doesn't, or at least get some kind of multi-spread until they unlock. I also think that those unifications should have events which cause some churn in your IGs. At least change the names. It's diplomatic unification, after all.

 

[aGamingKnight]

I've had many games as Austria watching the AI form Italy by 1841. (The earliest I've seen was mid 1840.) It is sometimes so fast that you don't even have enough time to subjugate SDP or Papal States, and then have the truce cooldown to annex them. [So maybe I was trying to recreate the HRE, sue me.] I've checked the italian states before, and only SDP can actually achieve this that fast - they are the only italian state that starts with Nationalism available to research. Two Sicilies has to get mass communications first.

But usually Italy forms for me in the mid 1840s ish if it's going to form - which is probably TS.

I like that the AI will form nations, but for the sake of variety they should probably not have the relevant AI nations (Prussia is also extremely guilty of this) beeline nationalism every single game. Having played italy before, I also think that there should be some leniency on technology - whichever state unifies a nation should inherit the techs that the other states have that it doesn't, or at least get some kind of multi-spread until they unlock. I also think that those unifications should have events which cause some churn in your IGs. At least change the names. It's diplomatic unification, after all.

Thanks for your comment. I totally agree that once you unify, you should inherit all the other techs of the other states, it only makes sense. As for when ai Italy forms I also agree it appears to happen fast for the ai, but yes always happens to be TS. I think maybe half the time I play I see TS form Italy mid 40s. I'm really not sure what they should do about it happening so quick that players can't interact with the Italian states. However, at the same time when you are a player in Italy, other GP interventions really hurt the player.

 

[Hansatron]

However, at the same time when you are a player in Italy, other GP interventions really hurt the player.

Well, anytime you play anything less than a great power, GP intervention is always a risk to your plans.
Unification is really, really powerful. And the devs have mentioned the fact that it’s completely unilateral and other countries have no say in a unifier taking subjects out from under them etc, isn’t ideal.

That said, Italy really needs to get claims on the 4 states held by Austria. Unification should be a movement beyond clicking one button once, and it should definitely have diplomatic repercussions (positive and negative.)

 

[anto5544]

About Italy and her formation made by Sardinia-Piedmont, historically a big help came from France which fight against Austria in the Second Italian War of Indipendence. The reason behind France helping Sardinia-Piedmont was a clever political maneuver made by Sardinia-Piedmont’s prime minister Cavour. The war vs Austria would have been very hard without the France army.
I think it would be nice it could be some event in game to make this happening, like a condition where if Sardinia-Piedmont has some obligation from France, the France help is automatic, or some other events like Savoy in exchange of France help (this could be a way to earn the obligation).
This would help Sardinia-Piedmont to form Italy and it also would weaken Austria. I don’t think Sardinia-Piedmont could take the state owner by Austria in Italy without some other Great Power support.
In the Third Italian War of Indipendence Prussia allied with Italy vs Austria, so Italy formation should need some support from ohter Great Power to weaken Austria, and in game there should be some way to do it

 

[Me_]

Maybe the French DLC will have some stuff related to the French involvement in the unification of Italy.
Or maybe Garibaldi will have a bigger role than just being an agitator for Census Suffrage.

 

[anto5544]

Maybe the French DLC will have some stuff related to the French involvement in the unification of Italy.
Or maybe Garibaldi will have a bigger role than just being an agitator for Census Suffrage.

You’re giving me hope, now I’ll have to wait for the DLC release to try a run with Sardinia and unify Italy.

Agitator could become an elegat way to add some historical development, if they do something more than help to pass laws.
Something like starting Wars on their own (or force you to start a war for a “moral” reason), like Garibaldi did, but also like varius adventurers of this era in America, the USA-mexican war could benefit from it, or other Central American Nations.

 

[5iberys]

I think two of the many reasons why Sardinia-Piedmont is so weak compared to Sicilly is the absence of the instability that plagued it through the 19th century, as well as an economy of scale that generally makes big agrarian economies at the begining of the game much stronger than they should.

 

[Veiovis123]

, I also think that there should be some leniency on technology - whichever state unifies a nation should inherit the techs that the other states have that it doesn't, or at least get some kind of multi-spread until they unlock.

In the current game, with 90+ percent of all tech points being generated by the base value every tiny speck of land gets, this would be absolutly bonkers. Germany in particular would generate like 20 times more tech points then anybody else onnthe planet until unification. Even when some techs end up reseaeched twice, thats an insane boost.

 

[Hansatron]

In the current game, with 90+ percent of all tech points being generated by the base value every tiny speck of land gets, this would be absolutly bonkers. Germany in particular would generate like 20 times more tech points then anybody else onnthe planet until unification. Even when some techs end up reseaeched twice, thats an insane boost.

I’m not talking about the innovation points itself, I mean the actual researched technologies.

As an example, Sardinia Piedmont starts with several more techs than Two Sicilies. When you unify Italy early as TS, those are simply forgotten.

Most German minors start around the same level, so in the course of 30 years they’ll mostly research the same stuff, but it just strikes me as strange that this isn’t handled. (As I mentioned, I’d just granting the techs would be too much, some kind of spread effect to bring them in over time would work too.)

I’m not even sure if you inherit the combined gold balances or not when you unify, which you definitely should.

Really they just need some pop ups or something that walk through everything that happened once you clicked unify, because that should be a massive, major event.