On coalitions: Maybe its your fault?

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Pellaken

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I admit I should have not used the word "reading", I should have used "seeing".

However; as someone who's never had coalition problems, I'm just enjoying reading the debate in this thread. I think some posters miss my point though, but I'd rather continue letting the debate go where it will.
 

zodium

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I admit I should have not used the word "reading", I should have used "seeing".

However; as someone who's never had coalition problems, I'm just enjoying reading the debate in this thread. I think some posters miss my point though, but I'd rather continue letting the debate go where it will.

Right, so, Teddy: Rather than debating the semantics of whether you should have used one word or the other, you should familiarize yourself with the various positions on coalitions. It's not a team sport with two sides trying to win the match, it's a complex problem with different preferences having different at-odds objectives. It's not at all trivial to balance concerns about viable late game expansion, inhibiting player snowballing to retain difficulty, and historical plausibility.

They intended vassal feeding as a workaround for mechanics that are to prevent you from expanding too fast? They told you this?

Oddly enough, yep. I don't have a link to the post, but Johan stated directly that vassal feeding is the/an intended means of circumventing coalitions, and is WAD.
 

zodium

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Thanks, I was not aware of that. I still hate it though as it feels very gamey.

Everything about AE management is gamey. Aside from vassal feeding, off the top of my head:

  • Allying neighbor countries before/after a war purely for the AE reduction.
  • Cycling between independent AE regions.
  • Going Religious even though you only need the BROT.
  • Optimizing relations for -29.
  • Chaining coalitions.
 

anomalacaris

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Wait a minute, what part of vassal feeding is related to Coalitions? Don't you have to take the AE yourself before selling them to vassals?
Do you mean return core to vassals? That is not normally what I think is refered to as vassal feeding though...
 

zodium

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To sum up the problem with coalitions in the late-game very concisely, it's that the dominant expansionist strategy (the only thing you need to concern yourself with to expand optimally) is always to manage AE. Whatever you do, it has to revolve around minimizing coalitions. The player's ability to make strategic decisions is removed as a factor in growth and replaced entirely by their ability to develop and manage their AE spreadsheet. There is no situation where "do something that helps avoid coalitions" is a strategically inferior choice to "do anything else" after you become the dominant Great Power, hence there is no longer any strategy.

The irony of it all is that this is about the only thing everyone can agree on, and yet that's where most discussions get quagmired: there should be still be strategy in the late game. If we break down the discussion into two broad sides of "people who want coalitions relaxed" and "people who don't," then the former group holds their position because the current mechanics render "manage AE" as the only strategy, while the latter holds their position because relaxing AE, ceteris paribus, would render "expand as much as possible" the only strategy. That's why we shouldn't break it down into two groups, because everyone really wants the same thing, only it's not a matter of going left or right along some hypothetical coalition continuum--it's about coming up with an actual, elegant solution.
 

Mann42

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To sum up the problem with coalitions in the late-game very concisely, it's that the dominant expansionist strategy (the only thing you need to concern yourself with to expand optimally) is always to manage AE. Whatever you do, it has to revolve around minimizing coalitions. The player's ability to make strategic decisions is removed as a factor in growth and replaced entirely by their ability to develop and manage their AE spreadsheet. There is no situation where "do something that helps avoid coalitions" is a strategically inferior choice to "do anything else" after you become the dominant Great Power, hence there is no longer any strategy.

The irony of it all is that this is about the only thing everyone can agree on, and yet that's where most discussions get quagmired: there should be still be strategy in the late game. If we break down the discussion into two broad sides of "people who want coalitions relaxed" and "people who don't," then the former group holds their position because the current mechanics render "manage AE" as the only strategy, while the latter holds their position because relaxing AE, ceteris paribus, would render "expand as much as possible" the only strategy. That's why we shouldn't break it down into two groups, because everyone really wants the same thing, only it's not a matter of going left or right along some hypothetical coalition continuum--it's about coming up with an actual, elegant solution.
I want this beautiful summary stickied to the top of the forum and tatooed on the head of anyone that starts threads like the OP.
 
Last edited:

Teije

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...That's why we shouldn't break it down into two groups, because everyone really wants the same thing, only it's not a matter of going left or right along some hypothetical coalition continuum--it's about coming up with an actual, elegant solution.

Great summary. I haven't been very active on the forums lately, so perhaps I missed it, but I don't see a broad consensus on what an actual, elegant solution could be.

There does seem to be consensus on a couple points - such as it's silly to have two nations who don't even know about each other (e.g. Mali and Japan) in a coalition against a nation. But beyond that, not really.
 

zodium

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Great summary. I haven't been very active on the forums lately, so perhaps I missed it, but I don't see a broad consensus on what an actual, elegant solution could be.

There isn't one, hence all the coalition threads.
 

grisamentum

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Thanks, I was not aware of that. I still hate it though as it feels very gamey.

I find posts like this incredibly annoying. You are playing one of the most abstract possible video games in existence. Hardly anything in the game is a direct representation of anything. Everything, even provinces, are incredibly high-level abstractions of some kind of real political unit. Hell, even some of the nations didn't really exist and are there for game purposes.

If anything in a Paradox grand strategy game feels "too gamey" for you, you're probably playing the wrong genre of game.
 

zodium

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I find posts like this incredibly annoying. You are playing one of the most abstract possible video games in existence. Hardly anything in the game is a direct representation of anything. Everything, even provinces, are incredibly high-level abstractions of some kind of real political unit. Hell, even some of the nations didn't really exist and are there for game purposes.

If anything in a Paradox grand strategy game feels "too gamey" for you, you're probably playing the wrong genre of game.

I understand the sentiment, but "too gamey" is roughly equally often used in the senses of "too ahistorical" and "too convoluted," and this could really be either.
 

PhoenixDown

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I really like the idea of coalitions, but execution is just... bad. Since the release I lost only one coalition war and it was because I became way too greedy, too soon in heart of Europe. Now I just play the AE game and ignore it once I get big. There's almost no challenge once you learn to play the game properly and avoid certain actions.

Another problem is there's nothing interesting about fighting a coalition. There's nothing to gain or negotiate for(gold, 2-4 provinces or releasing one nation is a complete joke for all the fighting, slaughter and siege). I don't think player should be able to completely dismantle coalition members, but there should be far more options to punish the coalition and vice versa coalition should have way more options(or space in war score) to punish the enemy.

Also maybe give some boost for coalition members against their enemy? I'm not really a game designer, but I hope paradox addresses coalition mechanic in some expansion.
 
Last edited:

Pellaken

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I really like the idea of coalitions, but execution is just... bad

When I originally posted this it was because the general feeling I was getting from glancing though the threads was one of

Why is paradox trying to add all this "history" crap to my wargame?!

One of the reasons I've not had much to say in this thread is that I fully agree with what you said.
 

Nobak

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When I originally posted this it was because the general feeling I was getting from glancing though the threads was one of



One of the reasons I've not had much to say in this thread is that I fully agree with what you said.

The threads typically start with anywhere from 1 to 4 pages of the usual flaming, then the people who are really interested in the topic manage to start a discourse while the flamers get bored and go find another thread. As a result, the good stuff is usually several pages deep and much easier to miss.
 

Te. Kenzo

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I hope I don't start a flame fest, but, after reading a lot of threads on coalitions and the game being not fun, I have to say something that seems obvious to me...

The reason they are there is that you are not supposed to be able to expand that fast.
They are there as a mechanic to keep the game realistic.
Nobody, in all the history of the world; nobody has ever taken over the whole planet.
You are not supposed to be able to do a world conquest.
Even with France.
Even on Easy.
Even if you can use one console command once a century.

While I can't speak for the game developers; the fact that they keep making it harder and harder to win by war tells me that they want you to find other strategies.

Now if coalitions and that are frustrating and make the game really super hard? That's fine. Dealing with challenges is the point of gaming (if games were easy we'd not play them)
However if coalitions are making the game "impossible" for you to like/play, then maybe you are playing the wrong game.

I love the coalitions and EUIV for the reasons you listed.