On Balance...

[I WUB PUGS]

12th-SS: You get 4x PzIV in Ph-B and 5x in Ph-C without a change in veterancy. It also seems you found an exception to the rule.

Erm.... pretty sure those are different PzIV's...... btw. J's and H's IIRC.

I don't think it's so much a rule or an exception to said rule so much as it something that seems prevalent, not blanket for sure, but pretty regular. The airborne deck is weird because those starting high vet infantry aren't even what's available later, so it is a difficult comparison to pull. The Vickers is easy because its in two phases with clear buffs to veterancy and availability. I'm not going to list all the ones from the closed Beta (I don't even remember tbh) but it is something that appears to be applicable to some degree to every deck.

 

[Thonar]

Erm.... pretty sure those are different PzIV's...... btw. J's and H's IIRC.

I don't think it's so much a rule or an exception to said rule so much as it something that seems prevalent, not blanket for sure, but pretty regular. The airborne deck is weird because those starting high vet infantry aren't even what's available later, so it is a difficult comparison to pull. The Vickers is easy because its in two phases with clear buffs to veterancy and availability. I'm not going to list all the ones from the closed Beta (I don't even remember tbh) but it is something that appears to be applicable to some degree to every deck.

Nope, you are actually completely off here, at least by the streams, as it seems.
It is both times IVH and, as edited, I can't even confirm your Vickers-Statement... maybe I'm completely blind or need a hint, but please review them too.
€: Look at the StuG-G as one of many examples here:

 

[Steeperman]

A 280 point A+B unit composition is probably stronger than a single 280-point Panther-G... but okay.

Probably... wow strong Argument. It could be stronger, depending on the Situation. But it alo could be weaker...
The Point is, that we can't say, that any Division is useless yet. The stats can Change, there will be much balancing in the future and this whole calculating These Units against These makes no sense, because the game Plays itself so much more complex, than just like "These 280 Points are better than the others".

I just don't understand, why you tink it is such simple with the Phase and Division Balance.

 

[I WUB PUGS]

The vickers statement is backed up 5 minutes into the deck building stream.

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/132014495

I didn't say it was blanket, but there are enough exceptions (some aren't in the streams but I can't talk about them) that make veterancy a "thing" and more available to certain cards.

In any case, I really think you've gone a bit overboard in pulling your hair out over what you see as unbalanced from a few streams.

The open beta will be more than enough testing for this.


Edit: Oh man, didn't even notice until now, Phase B Vickers comes in a universal carrier. All hail the Phase B Vickers with 2 star vet and availability of 6 in their own non-evaporating carrier!

 

[Slahinki]

Nope, you are actually completely off here, at least by the streams, as it seems.
It is both times IVH and, as edited, I can't even confirm your Vickers-Statement... maybe I'm completely blind or need a hint, but please review them too.
€: Look at the StuG-G as one of many examples here:

You can clearly see at 25:03 in that video you linked that in phase B you can get 5x Panzer IV Ausf. J for 130 points a piece (a really shit Panzer IV by the way.), 4x Panzer IV Ausf. H for 150 points a piece, or for that same price 2x vet 1 Panzer IV Ausf. H.

 

[Thonar]

Probably... wow strong Argument. It could be stronger, depending on the Situation. But it alo could be weaker...
The Point is, that we can't say, that any Division is useless yet. The stats can Change, there will be much balancing in the future and this whole calculating These Units against These makes no sense, because the game Plays itself so much more complex, than just like "These 280 Points are better than the others".

The thing is: I do not compare these units against these units or this division against that division (The Panther examples were only used to explain my point). I draw conclusions out of a game-mechanic all units under all circumstances are affected by no matter the situation which causes an imbalance.
That's why your point here seems to be off.

I just don't understand, why you tink it is such simple with the Phase and Division Balance.

Because of the prerequisites stated above.

The vickers statement is backed up 5 minutes into the deck building stream.

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/132014495

I didn't say it was blanket, but there are enough exceptions (some aren't in the streams but I can't talk about them) that make veterancy a "thing" and more available to certain cards.

In any case, I really think you've gone a bit overboard in pulling your hair out over what you see as unbalanced from a few streams.

The open beta will be more than enough testing for this.

I see the problem here:
The Vickers you base your opinion on are not the same:
The carrier is different and the high-veterancy ones are not airborne.
Thus there is no actual raise in veterancy.
(For an odd reason I searched for tanks xD)

You can clearly see at 25:03 in that video you linked that in phase B you can get 5x Panzer IV Ausf. J for 130 points a piece (a really shit Panzer IV by the way.), 4x Panzer IV Ausf. H for 150 points a piece, or for that same price 2x vet 1 Panzer IV Ausf. H.

And they are all Phase-B which doesn't support the point that Veterancy rises with the Phases.

 

[I WUB PUGS]

I see the problem here:
The Vickers you base your opinion on are not the same:
The carrier is different and the high-veterancy ones are not airborne.
Thus there is no actual raise in veterancy.

Yes there is, it's the same weapon system, it just doesn't benefit from the airborne tag.

Is it apples-to-apples? Sort of, maybe Red Delicious vs Fuji, but not this apples-to-oranges stuff you're pushing.

And I still can't talk about how I crafted my decks in the beta to take the gamble of "do I put this one unit of X in Phase Y or do I take this card of 2 in Phase Z that has the same unit with extra vet.................." It's really what makes the deck building so much more fun because you really do have to wonder if you need to take that crappy fighter or tank in the earlier phase or just roll the dice and get better stuff later and hope you don't get hammered in Phase A.

You gotta remember that as the Phases progress, you get better stuff so it isn't really a direct comparison between identical cards. Its more of a comparison of roles.




Edit: And just to put you at ease, and I hope I'm not breaking NDA here, but in my final game in the Beta, against Bots even, on just medium difficulty, I got flat out rolled by these 280 point Panthers you seem so concerned about.

This game is not as spread-sheety as you seem to think it is. I got rolled for really obvious reasons as 6th Airborne if I could show you where it was on the map.

Hint: terrain really matters

 

[Slahinki]

And they are all Phase-B which doesn't support the point that Veterancy rises with the Phases.

No Panzer IVs at all in phase A, thus veterancy rises with the phases. Jokes aside, if nothing else it ought to show us how even level 1 veterancy significantly affects unit performance and how important that might be.

 

[Thonar]

Yes there is, it's the same weapon system, it just doesn't benefit from the airborne tag.

Is it apples-to-apples? Sort of, maybe Red Delicious vs Fuji, but not this apples-to-oranges stuff you're pushing.

And I still can't talk about how I crafted my decks in the beta to take the gamble of "do I put this one unit of X in Phase Y or do I take this card of 2 in Phase Z that has the same unit with extra vet.................." It's really what makes the deck building so much more fun because you really do have to wonder if you need to take that crappy fighter or tank in the earlier phase or just roll the dice and get better stuff later and hope you don't get hammered in Phase A.

You gotta remember that as the Phases progress, you get better stuff so it isn't really a direct comparison between identical cards. Its more of a comparison of roles.

Yes, but other cards and units come with a different price tag and I don't see your point confirmed, despite it being an option to balance the mechanic out... but as soon as the price-tag changes, the problem remains.
But with identical units, what usually changes over the phases is availability, everything else looks, currently, to be like an exception to the rule that might change later on.

No Panzer IVs at all in phase A, thus veterancy rises with the phases. Jokes aside, if nothing else it ought to show us how even level 1 veterancy significantly affects unit performance and how important that might be.

No doubt.

 

[Slahinki]

And again I will also bring up the fact that we just don't know how long phase C lasts. From the three-phase devblog:

The two first phases of the battle, A & B, last ten minutes each whereas phase C stretches to the end

Are games always capped at 40 minutes like in the streams? We just don't know yet, and since time limit was an option in the game lobby in the streams, I highly douby it.

 

[I WUB PUGS]

"looks currently"

I really think you should just calm down until the open beta. Because even going off of the closed beta (which is completely obsolete by now), I'm just not gonna be able to agree with your concern about Herr Hitler's Boy Scouts Panther G's being UP in Phase C.

 

[Thonar]

And again I will also bring up the fact that we just don't know how long phase C lasts. From the three-phase devblog:

Are games always capped at 40 minutes like in the streams? We just don't know yet, and since time limit was an option in the game lobby in the streams, I highly douby it.

Actually we do know.
Phase A and B take 10 Minutes, Phase C the rest of the game.
That is an obvious statement and can be seen in the game with Alex in which Phase C was 20 minutes long, not 10 like in the Paradox-Stream.

"looks currently"

I really think you should just calm down until the open beta. Because even going off of the closed beta (which is completely obsolete by now), I'm just not gonna be able to agree with your concern about Herr Hitler's Boy Scouts Panther G's being UP in Phase C.

Again: I do not compare f*cking units or divisions.
The same counts for any other Phase-C unit.
Do you know, what makes me sick currently?
A lot of people who doesn't seem to grasp or understand the problem I'm adressing and telling me I shouldn't discuss a certain topic because the game isn't released yet... while so far no-one brought up any convincing point or possible solution... and now I'm getting even called indirectly a Wehraboo by you?
Honestly, if you don't want to discuss the topic or have any point, maybe you should just leave the topic.

 

[Slahinki]

Actually we do know.
Phase A and B take 10 Minutes, Phase C the rest of the game.
That is an obvious statement and can be seen in the game with Alex in which Phase C was 20 minutes long, not 10 like in the Paradox-Stream.

Well no fucking shit, but "the rest of the game" isn't really very precise now is it. It could be anything, 10, 20, 40 minutes, maybe more. We don't know. So why bother worrying that phase C units won't have time to influence the battle?

 

[Steeperman]

Again: I do not compare f*cking units or divisions.
The same counts for any other Phase-C unit.
Do you know, what makes me sick currently?
A lot of people who doesn't seem to grasp or understand the problem I'm adressing and telling me I shouldn't discuss a certain topic because the game isn't released yet... while so far no-one brought up any convincing point or possible solution... and now I'm getting even called indirectly a Wehraboo by you?
Honestly, if you don't want to discuss the topic or have any point, maybe you should just leave the topic.

Thing is, here are two closed Beta Players talking to you. We are under NDA, if i could i would tell you more about how the game Played already.
But i tell you all the time this: You think simply to short and confusing. You are considering "only the mecanic", which is a bit of a no brainer, when you don't tke Units into your considerations, as the diferent Units are really important for the game.
And the Things you say in general about values of Phase A Units in comparison to value of Phase B and C Units in General simply isn't the reality, as the Units you are getting in the different phases have largely different values on their own.
It is just much mre complex, than you think, when you have played the game already.

 

[fabius]

Guys, I haven't posted in this thread. But find this debate about the balance or trade offs issue of the phases, points total, weapons systems, and point score system of map control interesting. Some good posts and arguments here both ways. So I'm not trying to be a wanna be moderator police; just self interest to ask please keep the tone regular so we don't get a lock on this one.

 

[Adribenzema]

Thonar dont buy the game,no problem,80% people in this forum see the units in a,b,c phases good
Dont like,dont buy

 

[Graphic]

So the game isn't even out yet and Panzer Lehr is already underpowered in need of huge income buffs?

Several people have been overusing their Jump 2 Conclusion mats in the last few weeks, making alarmist threads that draw conclusions which are often bizarre, based on nothing more than something they think they did or didn't see while someone was barely paying attention to the game in a stream.

Those of us who were in the beta aren't trying to be elitist snobs by constantly dangling the fact that we participated in people's faces, but it's so painful to not be able to respond except through suggestions or implications..

 

[Bersercker]

Good point about some unit available in phase B being stronger than the same unit available in phase C. Making it cheaper in phase C as a general rule might be a good idea, cause otherwise its would need do be balanced at case by case basis which is much harder to do. I'm pretty sure Eugen devs are aware of this issue because the units available in later phases usually do have higher veterancy\availability.

Alternatively the phase C income could be buffed for all divisions if it turns out ther additional veterancy\availabity isn't enough, but that could have many unintended side-effects.

Another thing to consider: If phase C units being cheaper is not a thing and it turns out later that some unit is just right in phase B but is overpriced for in phase C even with one more veterancy then you can't make it stronger in phase C without affecting the phase B performance. So the devs might need to remove it from phase C and reroll it into different variant or something which is more time consuming than just tweaking the cost. Also there might be no suitable variant for this unit historically.

LOL at people saying "you can't discuss this because i don't understand \ don't agree".

 

[Destraex]

If I'm not mistaken there isn't normally a time limit on phase C, that's something they did to not have the streams go on for too long. So the way I understand it, phase C lasts until somebody wins, not until the 10 minutes are up. Then again I guess the timers for all the phases and time limits could be match options.

One of the streams mentions the last phase is unlimited and goes until the game ends. Think of the first two phases as starters and initial engagements until fill blown battle in phase C... the battle then proceeds until the objectives or end conditions are met.

 

[I WUB PUGS]

*snip*

Get a load of this fuggin guy. I'm done with you. I'm not gonna talk mechanics with you when we've not even had a chance to play the latest build and I can't talk about specifics because of NDA since not everything has been shown in a stream.

I can list a couple of ways that would totally mesh with what you're saying. And I can list a couple that would go against it, but again I'M UNDER NDA.

Wait until the damn game is out. At least in public beta when your grumbling can have a real tangible impact on the game. Right now you're just grasping at straws.