Old World Map - (Arabia Universalis)

[Basileios I]

Yes for Frisian, Anglian Saxon and Jutish, and I prefer Alamannian before Swabian - Swabian is bit later name for the same culture.

Concerning the Slavs, what about this:
Sorbian
Polish
Moravian
Karinthian
Croatian
Serbian
not sure about Bulgarian - maybe it should be nomadic Bulgar and some other Slavic culture in Bulgaria)

not sure about the eastern Slavs

CULTURES:

For Germania:

Frankish
Saxon
Alemannian
Bavarian
Thuringian
Anglian
Jutish
Frisian
Scandinavian

I think we should also add a Lombardian culture for the Germanic Lombards in Northern Italy. It shouldn't cover any province though.

I thought a bit about the Slavs. I think most of the South Slavs are too closely related to each other to warrant the creation of separate cultures. Even today there is hardly any difference between Croats and Serbs, for example, if you ingore the division over scripture and religion.

So for the Slavic regions, I propose:

Polish
Polabian (Germania Slavica)
Moravian (Czechs/Slovakians)
Pannonian (present-day Hungary)
Carinthian
Slavonic (Croatia, Serbia, Bulgaria, Greece)

I have no idea how to divide the Eastern Slavs, so I let's just lump them together under "Ruthenian" ...


PROVINCE WEALTH:

I think we should have a standard system of province income to define the wealth of a province. I propose:

20 - Extremely Rich (Places like Constantinople, Cordoba, Alexandria, Baghdad etc.)
18 - Very Rich
16 - Rich
14 - Wealthy
12 -
10 -
8 -
6 -
4 -
2 - Extremely Poor (remote tribal areas)

Only few provinces should be very high up the list. Naturally many areas in Syria, North Africa Asia Minor, Southern Italy or Southern Spain should be richer than, for example, the average Western European province. I think most provinces should be in the 10 to 4 brackets.

 

[Krantz]

CULTURES:

For Germania:

Frankish
Saxon
Alemannian
Bavarian
Thuringian
Anglian
Jutish
Frisian
Scandinavian

I think we should also add a Lombardian culture for the Germanic Lombards in Northern Italy. It shouldn't cover any province though.

Well, we could alwase change the name of the "Scandinavians" to the "Vikings" insteed, that would be much more prestige for the northern Germanic people.

We could also make the provinces who the Vikings own unknown for all but not the Vikings.

Then we could give the Anglo-saxons the explorers of Beowulf, Wulfstan and Ottar from Hålogaland.
Well they may not have been Anglo-Saxons but they gave informations about where the Vikings lived to the Anglo-Saxons.

So if the Vikings know where Britannia is then they can declear war against the Anglo-Saxons and take some lands before the Anglo-Saxons know where they came from.

Well the Anglo-Saxons will know where the capitals of the Vikings are when they declear war. But they will not know where to sail their ships.

And I agree that dividing the Anglo-Saxons into Anglian, Saxons and Jutish would be okey.

It would also be good if we could make one or two of the rivers in the east into sea provinces, so that the Vikings can sail down to Constantinople.

Well we could set up one or two outposts along the east for the Vikings.
When I say outpost i mean a province connected by two sail able rivers and a harbour for the river that goes south from that outpost.
Then the Vikings can and most take this outpost to be able to sail south.
The people that comes from the south will not be able to build ships going north from these outpost because that would need a second harbour to the rivers going north.

Well, if we make the rivers into sea provinces, then other will be able to sail into them and there for it will be hard for the Slavic tribes to move cross the continent and that may not be so good.
But perhaps we could live with it our make it easier for the Slavic tribes to cross the rivers some how.

I would suggest you to create four tribes for the Vikings from the start of this scenario.
These are the Danes, Normans(Norwegians), Geats(Gauts) and the Swedes(Suionians).
These tribes may not be fully expanded in Scandinavia so that we/you will not be forced to place more Viking tribes in the north. Because in this era there where a lot of independent tribes in the north. Let them insteed colonize the reamaining provinces in Scandinavia for them self.

It may also be better to set the Eastern Scandinavia to unknown for the Danes and Normans.
Also the Western Scandinavia and Britannia to unknown for the Swedes and Geats so that they look east in steed of west for new land to invade.

And if the Danes or Swedes starts to settle in provinces of Norway they may need to get that part of Scandinavia as unknown for them as well.

Hmm If Norway will be unknown for the Danes then i would suggest to give Gothenburg area to Scania so that they can go north to vestfold in the futher.

 

[cool-toxic]

Uhm the first part is good, but when you talk about making Volga and other rivers in Russia into sea provinces that does have some negative things. Like you can then colonise all provinces bordering it, you can land troops in every bordering province. the Slavs can go around it with the straits or artificial linking the provinces. (That is not needed in most cases as rivers run through provinces not splitting them.)

Did you want the rivers to be a closed "ocean" so you need special fleets to be build there? which is only present in North. I don't know if we can have that in the region. How many province IDs do you need?

You want only 4 kingdoms for Scandinavia ? Britain is getting all her kingdoms except Pictland which will be one. And we could maybe leave Dublin uncolonised to set up Viking Dublinia.

About Ruthenian, I believe all Viking provinces by eventchain should be changed to Rus when they intermarry the Slavs.
I don't know about the original Slavs.. We might need some Ugric people btw?

 

[trybald]

Well, we could alwase change the name of the "Scandinavians" to the "Vikings" insteed, that would be much more prestige for the northern Germanic people.

"Norse" sounds much better and more accurate.

 

[cool-toxic]

New IDmap in the second post. With correct Scandinavia, Belarus and Egypt.

And here is the 711 Scenario as skecthed, nothing further has been done since upload of 1.00.

http://www.abtirsi.com/arabiauniversalis/AU_711Scenario.jpg

EDIT: Ethiopia will be added tomorrow.

"Norse" sounds much better and more accurate.

The adjective Norse, which entered English in 1598, derives from the Dutch word noors, the adjective form of "Norwegian". The Nordic cognates of the word are Norwegian and Danish norrøn, Swedish norrön and Icelandic norræn. The modern English form may be used in a number of ways.

We can call them lots of names, Norsemen, Norse, Scandinavians, Vikings, Varangians, Rus' etc.

I think it should be Scandinavian and Rus'(the Scandinavian settlers in Russia).

 

[Emperor_krk]

New IDmap in the second post. With correct Scandinavia, Belarus and Egypt.

And here is the 711 Scenario as skecthed, nothing further has been done since upload of 1.00.

http://www.abtirsi.com/arabiauniversalis/AU_711Scenario.jpg

EDIT: Ethiopia will be added tomorrow.





We can call them lots of names, Norsemen, Norse, Scandinavians, Vikings, Varangians, Rus' etc.

I think it should be Scandinavian and Rus'(the Scandinavian settlers in Russia).

Looking gooood .

I'd go for Norse culture in Scandinavia and Rus' in Russia for them.

 

[cool-toxic]

Looking gooood .

I'd go for Norse culture in Scandinavia and Rus' in Russia for them.

Well if everyone wants it then it's okay.

Btw, now that you are here, got any suggestions to what we should do with the rest of Slavic area which is not made into states yet ? I think of splitting all the Baltic tribes into states so each province has a nation/tribe.
I guess we have Poland, but what more ?

 

[Basileios I]

Looking gooood .

I'd go for Norse culture in Scandinavia and Rus' in Russia for them.

I think the Scandinavian settlers in Russia should simply have Scandinavian (or Norse) culture. A state like the Kievan Rus should have Scandinavian and the local Slavic culture in the beginning and later lose Scandinavian via event (as the Vikings are assimilated).

 

[cool-toxic]

Yeah would be okay, but in order for the Rus' not to conquer Scandinavia ?Will have to be tested anyway. Krantz came with a proposal where we made some inland provinces like Smolensk have a port in the Black Sea, we can have the tribal nation as an isolated nation so they do not know any nations, thus they have the whiteman penalty and can not build ships them self. The Swedes should know them and be able to conquer them in order to set up naval bases in the Black Sea. And nice idea to have the rest of the world unawarw of the knowledge of Scandinavian kingdoms.

 

[Basileios I]

Yeah would be okay, but in order for the Rus' not to conquer Scandinavia ?Will have to be tested anyway. Krantz came with a proposal where we made some inland provinces like Smolensk have a port in the Black Sea, we can have the tribal nation as an isolated nation so they do not know any nations, thus they have the whiteman penalty and can not build ships them self. The Swedes should know them and be able to conquer them in order to set up naval bases in the Black Sea. And nice idea to have the rest of the world unawarw of the knowledge of Scandinavian kingdoms.

Well the Swedish Kingdoms never actively engaged in conquest in Eastern Europe. That were mostly privately financed adventures which can be simulated by events. I think the map should be kept as it is and the Scandiavian expeditions into Russia handled by events. Much simpler.


Also, the AI doesn't go after same-culture provinces on purpose AFAIK, so why should the Rus try to conquer Scandinavia?


EDIT:

Thinking again, giving provinces lying on great rivers access to the sea doesn't sound so bad ...

 

[cool-toxic]

Thinking again, giving provinces lying on great rivers access to the sea doesn't sound so bad ...

Oh and the other nations can't get the troops back.

 

[elvain]

I think that the sea-idea doesn't sound so bad, maybe not the entire rivers, but at least northenr parts of them?

Concerning Poland, I think that Pomeranians should have some kind of independent states. Also not sure about Bohemia and Moravia. There might be some anti-Avar confederation, but right now I'm not sure about it's datation. And later in the 8th century principality of (Great) Moravia should emerge

 

[Emperor_krk]

Well if everyone wants it then it's okay.

Btw, now that you are here, got any suggestions to what we should do with the rest of Slavic area which is not made into states yet ? I think of splitting all the Baltic tribes into states so each province has a nation/tribe.
I guess we have Poland, but what more ?

Remember Poland formed only after 950 - it looked much different before 711. In the 9th/10th century there existed 6 big groups of Slavic tribes on the territories of the later Poland. These were:

P - Polans (Polanie - it was them who took the lead of the other ones around 950);
G - Goplans (Goplanie (pl), Glopeani (latin)) - if you don't have enough tags, they could be merged with Polans;
M - Masovians (Mazowszanie);
S - Silesians (Ślężanie);
V - Vistulans (Wiślanie);
L - Lendians (Lędzianie).

Prov 816 should, I believe, go to principality of Brenna (or whatever that cyan thing to the west is).

I think we could use such a setup for the 711 scenario as well - it didn't change much there, though one should ensure that these tribes don't start conquering one another and make sure the civilized nations won't do that either. When Great Moravia emerged and took over Nitra around 830, it also conquered (or rather subordinated - could be done through vassalization in game) Vistulans and probably Lendians.

The Pomeranians should be one big entity (provs 716-717), but there should also exist a separate, CoT-owning, federation of the Volinians (Wolinianie in Polish; 718, their main seat was the village of Wolin (read: volin) on the island of Wolin).

About Rus'. The problem with that peace of Europe is that it's history isn't too clear and that there are a number of hypotheses regarding the emergence of the Rus' state. I think it should be handled via events and such. In 862 Rurik emerges as the head of state of Novgorod - at around the same time Askold and Dir should appear on the throne of Kiev (all states gaining, for some time at least, viking/scandinavian/norse/however-we-call-it as state culture, for the sake of historicity). With Rurik's death Oleg would emerge and take over Smolensk and Kiev in 882. Soon afterwards the capital would move there. And so on - you could use the maps I had sent you (elvain and Alex, if I remember correctly) a long time ago from that Ukrainian atlas in order to see the correct setup of the Rus' tribes.

 

[cool-toxic]

Many thanks. Now the map you talked about, I don't know which that is. If you got it still or could describe it in more details that would be nice ?

And I'll assure you all that we'll have loads of events which will deal with division of inheritance, break-away nations and tribes that move around.

 

[Emperor_krk]

Well, waaaay back (like, July? August? Don't remember) I sent you (via email, of course) a .RAR archive containing maps from a Ukrainian atlas with maps of the Rus' area. If you don't have it anymore, I can send it again. Or just upload it here.

Hm. Apparently there were no maps with the principalities, only where the tribes lived. But that should be enough for the 711 setup, and the location of the principalities is easy to find on the Internet.

 

[cool-toxic]

Okay anyway I don't got it anymore then. So would be nice if you would send it ? Just wait till you got time no rush. Thank you very much.

 

[elvain]

I think I might have it.. will check it

 

[cool-toxic]

Uhm according to this found on Wikipedia:

By the 10th century Prussia people came under conquest attacks by the Polans who had spread and with the first duke Mieszko I sought to conquer numerous peoples. Culmigeria being closest to the Polans came to be populated by the Lechitic Kuyavian and Masovian tribes as well. The Masovians were lead by Masos, who left the Polish duke Boleslaw I and sought refuge with the Prussians. When this area was subdued by the rulers of the Polans Chełmno became a local centre of administration (kasztelania). Chełmno Land was Christianised in the 11th century.

Culmerland should be known as Culmigeria, and be under Prussians.

 

[Emperor_krk]

Uhm according to this found on Wikipedia:

By the 10th century Prussia people came under conquest attacks by the Polans who had spread and with the first duke Mieszko I sought to conquer numerous peoples. Culmigeria being closest to the Polans came to be populated by the Lechitic Kuyavian and Masovian tribes as well. The Masovians were lead by Masos, who left the Polish duke Boleslaw I and sought refuge with the Prussians. When this area was subdued by the rulers of the Polans Chełmno became a local centre of administration (kasztelania). Chełmno Land was Christianised in the 11th century.

Culmerland should be known as Culmigeria, and be under Prussians.

I guess you're right. I based what I wrote above on an academic text book, according to which Goplans had had settlements on the right bank of Vistula as well, but those - on second thought - were meaningless. They should be easy to conquer by the Polans in the 920's-30's, and therefore leaving Goplans with only one province would be the best thing to do.

 

[elvain]

btw, I don't have the link with the maps

Culmerland should be known as Culmigeria, and be under Prussians.

I think we already came to this conclusion, didn't we?