Old complaint... new plea

[skulig]

Dear Paradox,

I am a huge fan of the Heart of Iron game, in particular HOI3, HOI4 and various mods thereof. I know this is something myself and other like minded fans have been crying about before, but please.... the OOB system from the HOI3 game was such an awesome way of playing at realistic armchair general planning and setting up historically accurate army groups by assigning all the historically correct divisions to the historically correct corps, armies and army groups with all the correct commanders of each thing. I used to spend hours of heartily wonderful time trying to move the armies and corps in the way that was realistic and pretending to protect the HQ divisions from encirclement or other harm was part of what made battle in the old HOI3 soooo much more fun than in HOI4. Admittedly the rest of the game is much better in the new HOI4 version, but the actual battles and wars were sooo much more in-depth awesomeness and awesomeity that I find it absolutely regrettable and tragic that you have foregone this awesome old setup in favor of making the game more accessible. Accessibility isn't exactly what draws crowds to the HOI series anyway is it?

A desperate plea.... please bring the old OOB system back, even if it is completely without any game mechanic effect, just allowing for the hierarchical structure would suffice for me. Of course the commander bonuses were fun but the current "all divisions in one large heap" was also possible in the old setup. One could have it as an optional setting at the beginning of the game, but please bring it back. I was going to wait for modders to add it back, but apparently you have so thoroughly removed the old system that no modder has been able to do it. Again, just for us armchair generals and those of us who like not only the industrial, production and diplomatic part of the game, but also the actual fighting, I beg of you to consider it at least!!

In the hopes that you at least find the time to comment on this plea...

Your most faithful and loyal fan,

Skuli

 

[Meglok]

It's a form of organization for armies. Divisions are formed into Corps, Corps into Armies, Armies into Army Groups, Army groups into Theaters. Each level has a commanding officer, who's skill affects certain stats. It was very complex in HoI 3 and not very intuitive (or indeed easy to work with even if you understood what you were doing), so it was toned down massively for the HoI 4 release until we could find a way to make it work with the new systems.

PDS will look at this "sometime in the future".

 

[Micah Goodman 2]

I can see them adding in theater commanders and Army Group commanders but individual Corps and Division commanders I don't believe will ever enter this game. While some people liked that mechanic For what HoI is I don't think that it fits with the game.

 

[Milano3093]

Tbh I disliked the HQ system in HO3. This was the system that made me stop playing ho3. I'm not sayinng it was bad
or anything like it, but I just didn't like it

 

[Hippob4]

I miss corps. Each Corps would contain 5 divisions which felt like a good manageable command group best for low-level activity (militia, Garrison units, cavalry, etc.) l and even high level activity (armored, elite infantry units) designed to breakthrough a tough obstacle.

24 units maximum per command group in HoI4 is a biiiit too much imo. And unlimited cap for Field Marshals is just ridiculously over powered. And I get why they raised the unit cap to 24 when even HoI4 during the alpha stages had smaller command groups like a corps of 6 divisions (Rommel was apparently a Corps commander early on in HoI4 but in the final launch version he's a General). It's probably because the amount of portraits needed for commanders would be too much for the artists. In HoI3 Paradox was able to use actual black and white photos of thousands and thousands of generals whereas now each general had to be drawn from scratch.

Again, it's understandable that Paradox can't produce hundreds of new portraits for smaller command groups (Corps). Maybe what they can do is create subgroups within an army of 24 units that would consist of ~5 divisions, thus acting as corps and those would generally be your crack units of that army. I think it's a bit annoying that you're recommended to create separate foot and mobile armies when historically the two usually coordinated with one another in the same army but were separated into corps.

So yeah, bring back Corps have it Corps (~5)->Armies (12)->Field Armies (24. Sorry, I don't like the idea of creating limitless sized armies) and have that web connecting units to each other the higher the hiearchy you press as that also helps you locate where your units are on the bigger picture (the OOB web actually helped me locate units and groups back in HoI3).

And no, i don't want divisions to each have unique commanders. Yes it added flavor but it was a micro hell to manage, remove, and swap commanders around.

 

[Cardus]

Tbh I disliked the HQ system in HO3. This was the system that made me stop playing ho3. I'm not sayinng it was bad
or anything like it, but I just didn't like it

You had the option not to use it.

 

[Milano3093]

You had the option not to use it.

Seriously XD Never saw/spotted that option tbh

 

[Cardus]

Seriously XD Never saw/spotted that option tbh

What XD stands for?

 

[ringhloth]

I want an OOB (or at least would like to see one). I do not want the old OOB system.

 

[Svampen]

You had the option not to use it.

Well as a min/maxer you pretty much had no choice.. Wouldn't want the AI to screw anything up. Very micro intensive and boring while also rewarding in a strange way.

I could do without the OOB but what HOI4 really needs is fuel consumption.
Why bother invading russia if not to quench the thirst of my panzers.

 

[Cardus]

Well as a min/maxer you pretty much had no choice.. Wouldn't want the AI to screw anything up. Very micro intensive and boring while also rewarding in a strange way.

I could do without the OOB but what HOI4 really needs is fuel consumption.
Why bother invading russia if not to quench the thirst of my panzers.

Why no choice? I cannot understand it. Many shown that they could beat the AI on hard difficulty and even conquer the world as Tibet/Albania/... Why a player HAD to use the OOB? In addition in HOI3 there is an option to reform automatically the OOB. If one is lazy, uninterested, etc. can just click a button. Is that micro intensive?

 

[browd]

What XD stands for?

It's another way of saying LOL -- looked at sideways, XD looks like a person laughing so hard that their eyes are closed.

You had the option not to use it.

Eventually, I got too irritated by the fact that the HOI3 AI could never keep its HQs in range; it made the whole OOB system nothing more than a special, human-player-only bonus system. In the end, I just attached all of my divisions to theaters to forego the OOB bonuses altogether.

 

[geckoman1011]

No no no no no. If you want tedious micro managing go buy a broom and pluck the bristles out one at a time.

 

[LostAlone]

I don't want to see useless micromanagement.

I would like to see some more interesting stuff happening with commanding officers; off the top of my head I don't think any nation has any really meaningful choices to be made with them with the odd exception of having to decide which general gets his skills lopped off to become a field marshal. So we could do with something, especially given that the present sizes of units are really weird and the promotion system doesn't make much sense. Instead of the full OOB I would like to see some more meaningful differences between different types and levels of officers. I wouldn't be against having some lower level officers in the game, there just has to be a purpose to having them there.

Suffice to say, we definitely should have more going on with the officers. I wouldn't be against a more limited form of OOB; perhaps just a two-level system with Army and Theater commanders? Just a little something for some more flavor and with different skills that matter for different kinds of officers; maybe Theater level officers can boost organization and logistics more than combat prowess but those skills can only be earned by actually doing theater level combat?

I don't know, I'm not a designer. But some slight increase in complexity might be a virtue here; just giving players a bit more meat to work with.

 

[Cardus]

It's another way of saying LOL -- looked at sideways, XD looks like a person laughing so hard that their eyes are closed.

Eventually, I got too irritated by the fact that the HOI3 AI could never keep its HQs in range; it made the whole OOB system nothing more than a special, human-player-only bonus system. In the end, I just attached all of my divisions to theaters to forego the OOB bonuses altogether.

Good, so you didn't use it and you won anyway. I cannot see what was your problem then.

PS
I had the same issue you mentioned but when I got lazy I just pushed the button to reform automatically the OOB.

PPS
The fact that the HQ was left behind in my opinion was a reason to improve the OOB not to scrap it.

 

[Corner79]

I think there is a way of adding more depth to OOB structure and command to HOI4 while still making it more accessible. Including options to turn it on or off throughout the implementation. I agree with what @LostAlone stated, along the lines of can we add it, not make it useless micromanagement and make it even better.

I like reading about the personal battles of divisions all the way to the top commanders in each front during the entire war. Anything that can do that in HoI4, that creates these mini histories, these decisive moments in the attack and allow them to stand out better would also be awesome and add to the depth of the game. I think an OOB created in the way already mentioned is one way to do this.

For example when i create my own pocket against my enemy and get excited about the conflict and what ifs of that moment, i pause and reflect, and then unpause and two seconds later boom its over. It would be great if divisions had a history in their panel that reflected as well as its Corp commander or army commander, etc. This is where an OOB offers more.

Also an air force command section with its own commanders maybe attached to armies or attached to created fronts would be amazing too!

 

[skulig]

It's another way of saying LOL -- looked at sideways, XD looks like a person laughing so hard that their eyes are closed.



Eventually, I got too irritated by the fact that the HOI3 AI could never keep its HQs in range; it made the whole OOB system nothing more than a special, human-player-only bonus system. In the end, I just attached all of my divisions to theaters to forego the OOB bonuses altogether.

And thats fine and exactly what I proposing... those that don't like it can do just what you described. About the human only.... well yes of course it human player only thing! I'm not particularly concerned whether or not the AI is enjoying the game

The division, corps, army and army group thing was a flavor thing for me... allowed me to nerd around by setting thing up in a historically realistic way and the HQ units would allow me to have corps based artillery or other support units in a very realistic and historically accurate way which I enjoyed tremendously. Of course it is easier and more convenient without the OOB system but that wasn't really the point. Those that complaint about the system don't have to use it, there could be a bonus for not using it for all I care. The old OOB system was just a way to make the armies structure feel more like the real thing... anyway. I guess there are those that play the game in a competitive sense and there are those that use the game more like building a model and enjoying the little details and peculiarities. But both views can be addressed by having be optional it seems to me... right?

 

[Gort11]

Playing the game optimally should be the most fun way to play it. If playing the game optimally is annoying or boring, the game needs to change.

You had to use HoI3's OOB system if you wanted to play optimally, but it was annoying and boring.

 

[Cardus]

Playing the game optimally should be the most fun way to play it. If playing the game optimally is annoying or boring, the game needs to change.

You had to use HoI3's OOB system if you wanted to play optimally, but it was annoying and boring.

True but if you accept the challenge to play hard vs the AI why you need to use the OOB? No OOB is just an additional challenge for you as player.

PS
Still there is the option of an automatic OOB

 

[skulig]

I don't want to see useless micromanagement.

I would like to see some more interesting stuff happening with commanding officers; off the top of my head I don't think any nation has any really meaningful choices to be made with them with the odd exception of having to decide which general gets his skills lopped off to become a field marshal. So we could do with something, especially given that the present sizes of units are really weird and the promotion system doesn't make much sense. Instead of the full OOB I would like to see some more meaningful differences between different types and levels of officers. I wouldn't be against having some lower level officers in the game, there just has to be a purpose to having them there.

Suffice to say, we definitely should have more going on with the officers. I wouldn't be against a more limited form of OOB; perhaps just a two-level system with Army and Theater commanders? Just a little something for some more flavor and with different skills that matter for different kinds of officers; maybe Theater level officers can boost organization and logistics more than combat prowess but those skills can only be earned by actually doing theater level combat?

I don't know, I'm not a designer. But some slight increase in complexity might be a virtue here; just giving players a bit more meat to work with.

Agree with having officers and the structure of the military hierarchy play a bigger role, perhaps even with a High Command staff etc. but to take if half way like you're suggesting... please no!! Currently I find the fighting in HOI4 without the OOB so uninteresting that I just create enormous army groups and play my campaigns on highest speed to get it over with... the interesting parts of the game now being the preparation for new wars and political playing around as well as the focus trees.

Either make the battles interesting again or don't. Put back the OOB system with an on/off switch. Let us play with the historical names and portraits of the commanders and their staffs or don't.

Playing the game optimally should be the most fun way to play it. If playing the game optimally is annoying or boring, the game needs to change.

You had to use HoI3's OOB system if you wanted to play optimally, but it was annoying and boring.

It seems to me that some of you are saying that you HAD to use the OOB system of the HOI3 game even if you hated it because of the tiny benefits it would give you and that consequently you "had to use it" because otherwise you wouldn't be "min/max-ing" or "playing it optimally"...

Really? ... so you want to take the toys away from those of us who actually like the micromanagement of the military just because you cannot stand that you aren't utilizing every bit of whatever... perhaps if the OOB system wouldn't have any game mechanic effects whatsoever these guys that hated the system wouldn't feel somehow psychologically compelled to use it.

Personally I don't understand why both types of players can't be catered to here, by an OPTIONAL OOB system. Personally I don't understand why people that don't like little tedious micromanagement activities are even playing a game like HOI at all

.... but if you excuse me, I have some broom bristles to pluck ;-)