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Phalanxia

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I never thought so many Paradox players would be so naive. Why on Earth would France not want a piece of the East India pie and challenge you if you dominate that trade?

People saying "Aw the OP doesn't want to be betrayed, he just wants to be trusted" - rubbish. This post would be "Wow, France's AI is so good it's prepared to do whatever it takes to get what it wants" if that was the case.
 

Zqrfmb

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I never thought so many Paradox players would be so naive. Why on Earth would France not want a piece of the East India pie and challenge you if you dominate that trade?

People saying "Aw the OP doesn't want to be betrayed, he just wants to be trusted" - rubbish. This post would be "Wow, France's AI is so good it's prepared to do whatever it takes to get what it wants" if that was the case.

You're missing the point, the issue isn't that France would turn against an ally for east indian trade, it's that there's no tension building up to the break of the alliance, it's literally instant hate the moment that mission comes up. Other posters have also mentioned issues the AI has had where they break beneficial alliances due to missions and are subsequently annexed for it because that alliance was protecting them from other foes.
 

TheMeInTeam

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I never thought so many Paradox players would be so naive. Why on Earth would France not want a piece of the East India pie and challenge you if you dominate that trade?

People saying "Aw the OP doesn't want to be betrayed, he just wants to be trusted" - rubbish. This post would be "Wow, France's AI is so good it's prepared to do whatever it takes to get what it wants" if that was the case.

Let's try again.

The problem with this alliance dumping can be boiled down to one simple statement:

- Because of a stupid mission implementation, France is perfectly fine with leaving you in control of the lowlands and enormous trade income, but the moment you get one province in a specific region across the world, THEN it wants just that one province so badly that it'll tank even its only ally to get it, despite that it can complete said mission 20 times over w/o breaking alliance.

That's the reason it isn't plausible, the reason it's broken. The AI will bypass its usual checks for alliances due to a mission that is not mutually exclusive with keeping its alliances over territory that is far less valuable to it than provinces that it should in theory have wanted more in the first place. This comes off as idiotic and arbitrary, because it is in fact idiotic and arbitrary.
 

Simoleum

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"Oh Netherlands, how I love thee, yet hate thee, yet love thee again, yet utterly despise thee for those provinces on the other side of the world!"
This sums it up

I think this is sort of what trust does. if you repeatedly accept CTA from your ally then trust levels increase, which in turn improves diplomatic relations.

Although the main problem is the Indian and Indonesian missions, so I don't think it would solve the problem.
I've had trust levels that couldnt go higher as I joined every war they had. Yet France desided to hate me

Odd. I haven't seen any issues with this so far with nations that would normally be hostile to me. As long as I had kept relations very high and in an alliance, using all available diplo options and building trust...no probs.
It can also depend on the AI ruler's behavior. If they are diplomatic or a colonizer I don't think they have many 'wants provinces' modifiers unlike a balanced or aggressive ruler.
I wouldn't be surprised if this isn't working somehow though. Seems like a few things that were sort of resolved in 1.7 were somehow broken again in 1.8.

Hopefully they'll do something as it is pretty irritating. As for keeping relations high, so did I. I had 195-200+ constantly by having one diplomat non stop improving relations in France.
 

TheMeInTeam

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It's a problem of missions overriding diplo. There is nothing off about France taking and completing that mission. It's a matter of how it weights the mission and its decision to go hostile when it can complete the mission without altering its diplo at all.

I'd be okay with betrayal in a more rational context, like wanting border land. However, when completing a mission and an alliance are not mutually exclusive, the AI shouldn't treat them like they are.
 
Last edited:

SknerusMck

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You can always mod file opinion modifiers so max. penalty from {desire your provinces} will be 0.
 

Ranjid

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You can always mod file opinion modifiers so max. penalty from {desire your provinces} will be 0.

Mods are a way to enrich your game experience. That's fine and a legitimate way to fix such behaviour. However, it being modable does NOT make the issue at hand simply disappear. It should be fixed/tweaked nonetheless.
 

Sunspawn

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That's a problem with mission selection, not diplomatic behaviour.
I'll give you an example that describes this situation - Say we are best friends for years. One day you decide to sit on a bench. It's a nice bench. I come over and see it - and want to sit on it too. There is plenty place for both of us to share - for now. But instead of sitting down next to you, I slug you in the face and tell you to move out - or I'll do worse. Five minutes later, I remember I need to go shopping, so I don't want to sit on the bench anymore and suddenly act all friendly again, completely forgetting the fact I just punched you in the face.

Not 100% parallel, but close enough.
 

Ricox

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If you want to be the friend of France forever, build a bench of vassals between you and France. At least, that was my way to save the alliance in 1.7. I don't know exactly why, but it helped.

Not sure if it's a new 1.8/AoW mechanic, but countries can desire the provinces of your vassals too and they will hate you for that (and probably the vassal too, but that's the unimportant part). At least that's what I recall, might have been dreaming about that (not really), but I had that in my game.

I'll give you an example that describes this situation - Say we are best friends for years. One day you decide to sit on a bench. It's a nice bench. I come over and see it - and want to sit on it too. There is plenty place for both of us to share - for now. But instead of sitting down next to you, I slug you in the face and tell you to move out - or I'll do worse. Five minutes later, I remember I need to go shopping, so I don't want to sit on the bench anymore and suddenly act all friendly again, completely forgetting the fact I just punched you in the face.

Not 100% parallel, but close enough.

The example works about the sudden changes that happen from friendly to hostile, from hostile to friendly, but you're forgetting that just because there's other room it doesn't mean it make no sense for you to want the entire bench. Maybe France doesn't want a country getting too strong on its borders, so instead of starting some sort of a cold war by taking more territory than its neighbor, it instead does two-in-one - both takes provinces and ensures the enemy has less provinces.

As a player, I do that. Ex. when Burgundian Inheritance triggered in my playthrough as France - I did initially keep my alliance with Austria, but eventually, when I had become strong enough (as in - noticeably stronger than Austria & all her allies combined), I betrayed them. It's only logical an AI would do similar - it's smart. But yes, the problem is how the AI changes its attitude from one day to another so suddenly and then, disregarding the backstab it did, it simply goes back to friendly again at some point, pretending nothing happened.

It's because diplomacy is all based on numbers and modifiers, a random mission giving claim on an ally is such a huge modifier that it outweighs any other positive ones and destroys the friendship. I don't think that will change, but I think they could somehow make those modifiers creep in slowly, change over time, not so suddenly, and have the AI realize consequences of its actions. But in all honesty, probably will stay this way - maybe in future PI games the diplomacy AI will be based on some more sophisticated and advanced systems, but, for now, numbers is best we can get.
 
Last edited:

Nassau

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The Dutch allied and fought the Danish and Swedish multiple times, just to keep some sort of balance in that region, a balance they profited from. And although fighting against the Swedish or Danish, they still silently allowed Dutch merchants to sell weapons to the enemy.


In this case I can imagine France wanting to become the most powerful, or their interest colliding with Dutch interest. Just as when the Swedish tended to dominate the Baltic region, then the Dutch knew they had to support the Danish.


Dutch politics were very pragmatic, supporting former enemies when they had the same goal. When France became to powerful they fought against them, if they could use Spain in that process than so be it. And while having taken lots of Portuguese colonies, they didn't hesitate to fight with them when necessary. Eventually this quest for balance depleted the Dutch coffers. France to strong on land, England to strong at sea.


But ingame the stupid thing is that often it leads to a suicide mission for the AI. Long term allies often share a lot of borders, and when the Dutch have France as trusted ally for a long term, they tend to grow, especially on colonial level. They become an economic and maritime powerhouse. Dangerous to fight against as France.

Although with the latest expansion the Dutch can't get a lot of manpower from their colonies. And England wont intervene, often they just join the fight with a war of their own, beating a weak dog even further to the ground.
 
Last edited:

Beagá

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Well, I´m more annoyed right now by dumber AI DOWs, above all those against enemies with better tech levels and to which land acess is impossible. The particular issue the OP has can be easily solved by simply removing those missions, or at least only giving claim if the province isn´t owned by an european country. It could even be put in a hotfix.
 

Saintlukas

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My only grivance is because paradox "patched" the part about being able to make the AI accept any peace demand you offer them at 100% I can no longer convert to a different religion b simply occupying all them, this put a wrench in my shinto Manchu game because now I have to hope I spawn religious rebs to convert me to shinto
 

TheDarkMaster

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My only grivance is because paradox "patched" the part about being able to make the AI accept any peace demand you offer them at 100% I can no longer convert to a different religion b simply occupying all them, this put a wrench in my shinto Manchu game because now I have to hope I spawn religious rebs to convert me to shinto

Wouldn't it be enough to conquer one Shinto province, core it, wait for nationalism to go away, then drop a missionary on it and immediately accept the demands of the Shinto zealots that spawn?

Also, that doesn't have anything to do with the discussion at hand.
 

Saintlukas

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Wouldn't it be enough to conquer one Shinto province, core it, wait for nationalism to go away, then drop a missionary on it and immediately accept the demands of the Shinto zealots that spawn?

Also, that doesn't have anything to do with the discussion at hand.

this seems like a good thread to complain anyway, also
1. you need more then 50% of you rprovinces to be shinto before you can accept their demands
and
2. My national unrest modifers are super high so I I have to basically put myself at shity stablity to get that without also provoking patriots or nationalists