Okay, WTF

[riknap]

I feel this belongs here:

Spoiler

it perfectly does :laugh:

So France getting the mission to start colonizing SE Asia and thus desiring the provinces of the largest land owner in SE Asia is.... weird?
Why?
Sounds completely logical to me. Priorities shift, and today's enemies are tomorrows friends while tomorrows enemies are today's friends. Suck it up and Practice your Dance Moves.

the main problem the OP has is that the change happens literally overnight. a nation in this game can suddenly hate your guts the moment they get a certain mission.... then once that mission is no longer valid, suddenly love you all over again. while this makes *some* sense in terms of realpolitik, it doesn't make sense for the change to happen that abruptly. real-world realpolitik had at least some period of transition before relations decayed/shifted, not instantaneously as our bipolar-like AI does (due to game mechanics)


personally, I'd prefer if the "desires province" modifier did not suddenly become -200 overnight, but rather growing from -1 to -200 over a few months (like -50 per month or so). that at least would model a gradual change in stance

 

[Calbrenar]

The problem is this is far too random. It'd be one thing if France took the mission and hated him because there were no other open nations so their only choice was to take it. That isn't what's happening here. What's happening here is there's a line of code somewhere that says give -relations per claim on a persons province. This mechanic is most likely intended for situations like the ai having strategic interest in something and the more it fabricates on it the more likely it is to get aggressive with the targets.

The whole mission result is either an unintended consequence or a lazy attempt to make the end game more interesting.

 

[Gaamel]

Playing Gelre --> Nethrlands. Formed Netherlands early and now in 1680 I have a pretty large colonial empire, and i dominate the pacific/Southeast Asia with Australia and the East Indies are mine (still open colonizing space). France which have been my firm ally with +200 rating and a <3 opinion since the start, and whom I have answered to every single call for war for suddenly broke our Allience. I was surprised and saw that the ++200 rating went to -33, and a few days later a <3 rating went to hostile. The reason for this 2-300 year old breaking of super tight relations was... "Desires you provinces".

WTF? What's the realism in this?

By experience, I can tell that the relation value is not reliable at all, most of the time it's rather deceitful. It's required to have good relations for certain actions (royal marriage, alliance, vassalization etc). The relation status (friendly, rivalry, etc) is much more meaningful to know what the partner thinks of you, but you have to understand this is only the representation of a present behavior towards you, in a current situation. A <3 doesn't mean the AI will be your friend forever, it only means the AI is your friend now.

-With the NL I assume you play a republic, so you don't have a royal marriage with your ally France. It's a shame because attacking a nation you have a marriage with costs -1 stab (unless you have full diplo or you control the curia, in which cases you can break the marriage freely beforehand). The AI is very sensitive with these things, that's why monarchies are more stable than republics.
-Do you have the same religion? France is always catholic and the NL are most of the time protestant. It does not only mean -20 or -40 relation, it also affects "hidden" values in the game similar to diplo relation.
-Being a friend with someone who has plans about your territory is useless, sooner or later he was bound to attack you. I guess he wants the wallonian provinces? No wonder...

"France has no friends, only interests" (Charles de Gaulle)

 

[Incompetent]

-With the NL I assume you play a republic, so you don't have a royal marriage with your ally France. It's a shame because attacking a nation you have a marriage with costs -1 stab (unless you have full diplo or you control the curia, in which cases you can break the marriage freely beforehand). The AI is very sensitive with these things, that's why monarchies are more stable than republics.

Dutch Republics can marry, IIRC.

 

[Pugman]

What you mean is another person who doesn't agree with you.

No, he means they're stupid replies because they are. Every time someone posts an issue with the game a clown car shows up with a load of people talking about how realistic it is and isn't it wonderful how PI designed to the game to work in such a realistic and historically plausible way. It's not WAD. It's an oversight and this is valid criticism.

 

[markslawson]

For Simen 113.. off the alliance/diplo topic entirely.. how come you're in Asia in the first place? I would have thought you'd naturally face out West. Obviously around Africa but can you get the trade past Sevilla to Northern Europe.. isn't going out west a lot easier for getting the trade back to Europe..

 

[balmung60]

For Simen 113.. off the alliance/diplo topic entirely.. how come you're in Asia in the first place? I would have thought you'd naturally face out West. Obviously around Africa but can you get the trade past Sevilla to Northern Europe.. isn't going out west a lot easier for getting the trade back to Europe..

Sure. Just run it through other nodes. Asian and African trade can be brought back to other parts of Europe through Siberia, the New World (Philippines -> Panama -> Caribbean -> Chesapeake Bay -> English Channel), Ivory Coast (goes straight to both Bordeaux and English Channel), or the Gulf of Aden. Sevilla isn't really that special for collecting this trade.

 

[unmerged(102460)]

WTF? What's the realism in this?

Clearly you've never met the French. A fickle folk.




It's the maggot cheese.

 

[atwix]

Playing Gelre --> Nethrlands. Formed Netherlands early and now in 1680 I have a pretty large colonial empire, and i dominate the pacific/Southeast Asia with Australia and the East Indies are mine (still open colonizing space). France which have been my firm ally with +200 rating and a <3 opinion since the start, and whom I have answered to every single call for war for suddenly broke our Allience. I was surprised and saw that the ++200 rating went to -33, and a few days later a <3 rating went to hostile. The reason for this 2-300 year old breaking of super tight relations was... "Desires you provinces".

WTF? What's the realism in this?

did you have indian colonies? If they take our claims to india mission, its Alliance breaker. Same goes for italian state with Austria ally and Austria getting our claims into italy mission. Check if they took a mission that gives them claims over your land.

If not well, France is France. Allying them with a great border Always backfires at some point, because the 's why i Always stomp france if i'm near 'm in 1444.

 

[atwix]

I feel this belongs here:

hahaha.. That just made my day. Did you know that "French fries" are actually belgian invention aswell? France stole those, and now they come for the waffles...

And LOL at the detail "-200 AE Lucky wine" France drinks.

 

[selectah]

I can just imagine an imaginary AI-Nation forum that is full of threads like this. 'Player was allied to me for 200 years, then suddenly breaks alliance and backstabs me! Broken mechanics ffs'

 

[Cheesecakeczar]

Tell me, how many times have you betrayed a long time ally?

I actually never do.

 

[Talar]

I suppose one part of the problem is that the mission selection is random from a number of valid missions. This way it becomes completely random if France decides to take a mission that will make it's interests clash with yours, but at some point it will happen. The only way to avoid it would be to avoid everything that could trigger such missions, like having border provinces, colonies in the wrong places etc.

The AI probably doesn't do any evaluation of the missions like the human player before it picks one. If there were some checks here to see what missions have synergies with long-term ambitions and current situation like useful alliances it would behave more reasonably I think. Flipping from one day to the other I don't think is the real problem, it probably seems like that to the AI as well when you backstab them. And I don't mind an AI capable of good backstabs. But it would be nice if they stabbed you because being your friend is really not in their best interest anymore and not just at random.

 

[Bragi]

This sudden behavior of the AI is something that bothers me for verly long now.

As other mentioned, the OP does not claim that a relationship should last forever, but rather the quick shift all of a sudden from +200 to -200 and hostile.
For me it's clear that the AI is not able to calculate the advantages and disadvantages such a mission (or smth else) would have, as it is blank stupid to cancel a valuable and strong ally just to get a measly province somewhere in India.
It is clear that the AI must have a strive to expand and grow in strength, therefore it must conquer probably provinces far away, but in this case the price is to break an alliance and therefore getting weaker on the home continent, which is, in my opinion, not just illogical, but not intended as well.

 

[Blitzzer]

personally, I'd prefer if the "desires province" modifier did not suddenly become -200 overnight, but rather growing from -1 to -200 over a few months (like -50 per month or so). that at least would model a gradual change in stance

This would also give a player time to act to prevent something like this from happening. Declare war on a hapless native, call France and then flip atleast one of the sieges to them and finally give that province over to France in the peace deal. France gets their mission done and no longer (probably) desire your provinces. Unless they want your homeland provinces as well, of course.

 

[Dawkins]

Playing Gelre --> Nethrlands. Formed Netherlands early and now in 1680 I have a pretty large colonial empire, and i dominate the pacific/Southeast Asia with Australia and the East Indies are mine (still open colonizing space). France which have been my firm ally with +200 rating and a <3 opinion since the start, and whom I have answered to every single call for war for suddenly broke our Allience. I was surprised and saw that the ++200 rating went to -33, and a few days later a <3 rating went to hostile. The reason for this 2-300 year old breaking of super tight relations was... "Desires you provinces".

WTF? What's the realism in this?

International relations isn't schoolyard relations

 

[Bragi]

International relations isn't schoolyard relations

International politics isn't and wasn't love/hate relationship constantly flipping. There were long term goals and balancing advantages and disadvantages.

 

[nalfz]

France

Well there's your problem

 

[Simoleum]

Dutch Republics can marry, IIRC.

I got a royal marriage actually! So it's probablt what saved me. Suddenly France loved me again and allied me. Then before I knew it I suddenly gfot negative relations -200 and hostile because of 2 indian cores. Shouldn't they rather want these off another country (say Orissa)? Instead of betraying an ally.. It's weird!

For Simen 113.. off the alliance/diplo topic entirely.. how come you're in Asia in the first place? I would have thought you'd naturally face out West. Obviously around Africa but can you get the trade past Sevilla to Northern Europe.. isn't going out west a lot easier for getting the trade back to Europe..

I control all of Australia, basically all of the East Indies and Taiwan. I collect trade in Malacca for around 20-60 a day. In the English Channel I gather anything from 100-400. First time playing Netherlands and I can say that the amount of trade money you get is insane! Finally I'm the richest country lol

This would also give a player time to act to prevent something like this from happening. Declare war on a hapless native, call France and then flip atleast one of the sieges to them and finally give that province over to France in the peace deal. France gets their mission done and no longer (probably) desire your provinces. Unless they want your homeland provinces as well, of course.

I really liked that idea! So many other things in game have a ticker anyways (Enemy of enemy for example). I think this would make more sense. I also hope they add something to make the AI rather go for slightly stronger civs/uncivs than betray a long time ally over night.

Well there's your problem

lol, good one

 

[TheMeInTeam]

The problem with this alliance dumping can be boiled down to one simple statement:

- Because of a stupid mission implementation, France is perfectly fine with leaving you in control of the lowlands and enormous trade income, but the moment you get one province in a specific region across the world, THEN it wants just that one province so badly that it'll tank even its only ally to get it, despite that it can complete said mission 20 times over w/o breaking alliance.

That's the reason it isn't plausible, the reason it's broken. The AI will bypass its usual checks for alliances due to a mission that is not mutually exclusive with keeping its alliances over territory that is far less valuable to it than provinces that it should in theory have wanted more in the first place. This comes off as idiotic and arbitrary, because it is in fact idiotic and arbitrary.