Okay, WTF

[Simoleum]

Playing Gelre --> Nethrlands. Formed Netherlands early and now in 1680 I have a pretty large colonial empire, and i dominate the pacific/Southeast Asia with Australia and the East Indies are mine (still open colonizing space). France which have been my firm ally with +200 rating and a <3 opinion since the start, and whom I have answered to every single call for war for suddenly broke our Allience. I was surprised and saw that the ++200 rating went to -33, and a few days later a <3 rating went to hostile. The reason for this 2-300 year old breaking of super tight relations was... "Desires you provinces".

WTF? What's the realism in this?

 

[Drakken]

What, you expected France to be your loyal pal forever, just because?

France AI decided you became too strong and/or a neat target to conquer, there's nothing unrealistic about that. Priorities change, and self-interest changes.

 

[BarrosRodrigues]

Playing Gelre --> Nethrlands. Formed Netherlands early and now in 1680 I have a pretty large colonial empire, and i dominate the pacific/Southeast Asia with Australia and the East Indies are mine (still open colonizing space). France which have been my firm ally with +200 rating and a <3 opinion since the start, and whom I have answered to every single call for war for suddenly broke our Allience. I was surprised and saw that the ++200 rating went to -33, and a few days later a <3 rating went to hostile. The reason for this 2-300 year old breaking of super tight relations was... "Desires you provinces".

WTF? What's the realism in this?

You play this game for realism? Lol Checkout the picture below, that should give you an idea of what is going on:

 

[TheBoozehammer]

Tell me, how many times have you betrayed a long time ally?

 

[Zenith Darksea]

What, you expected France to be your loyal pal forever, just because?

France AI decided you became too strong and/or a neat target to conquer, there's nothing unrealistic about that. Priorities change, and self-interest changes.

Ugh, these stupid replies...

The poster is clearly not saying that he expects France to be his friend forever. He's obviously making the point that their attitude flipped from totally positive to totally negative overnight. This is a consequence of the fact that France just got the mission to conquer a S.E. Asian trade port, giving it claims on all the poster's provinces in the region. This then means that France instantly hates the player.

The problem isn't the fact that France can change its attitude; the problem is the fact that the game mechanics mean that an AI country's attitude will flip instantly, and sometimes flips back again instantly as well. Clearly this is irrational from both a logical and a gameplay perspective. It's a rough game mechanic that needs smoothing.

 

[Rider_of_Doom]

If you want to be the friend of France forever, build a bench of vassals between you and France. At least, that was my way to save the alliance in 1.7. I don't know exactly why, but it helped.

 

[TheDarkMaster]

Ugh, these stupid replies...

The poster is clearly not saying that he expects France to be his friend forever. He's obviously making the point that their attitude flipped from totally positive to totally negative overnight. This is a consequence of the fact that France just got the mission to conquer a S.E. Asian trade port, giving it claims on all the poster's provinces in the region. This then means that France instantly hates the player.

The problem isn't the fact that France can change its attitude; the problem is the fact that the game mechanics mean that an AI country's attitude will flip instantly, and sometimes flips back again instantly as well. Clearly this is irrational from both a logical and a gameplay perspective. It's a rough game mechanic that needs smoothing.

I had the same issue with Spain in another game. We had no boarder, but there was a huge penalty to relations thanks to that India mission and the free claims that you get for it.

 

[Simoleum]

Ugh, these stupid replies...

The poster is clearly not saying that he expects France to be his friend forever. He's obviously making the point that their attitude flipped from totally positive to totally negative overnight. This is a consequence of the fact that France just got the mission to conquer a S.E. Asian trade port, giving it claims on all the poster's provinces in the region. This then means that France instantly hates the player.

The problem isn't the fact that France can change its attitude; the problem is the fact that the game mechanics mean that an AI country's attitude will flip instantly, and sometimes flips back again instantly as well. Clearly this is irrational from both a logical and a gameplay perspective. It's a rough game mechanic that needs smoothing.

You're a gentleman and a scholar sir! Thanks. Also thanks for the explanation that this is because of the mission in SE Asia.
I just found it pretty stupid and incredibly annoying that they turned over night because of a game mechanic. I hope they can fix this

 

[dstarsboy]

I have had situations where an ally "Wants your provinces" and they wanted 3 provinces and only had a -5 relations hit. I had other situations where a country wants 2 provinces, for, like, a -80 relations hit. I think this very much depends on whether or not the province in question is part of a mission or event compared to just being a casual claim.

 

[Challenger2008]

I feel this belongs here:

 

[hashinshin]

Realism?

The French king is likely 4-6 lines down from the one that originally made the alliance. All he knows are stories from his great grandpa about why you allied, which he heard from HIS grandpa.

Jeez, as an American I'm trying to think of who we had alliances with 300 years ago. That'd be before even the revolution, soooo... I guess the Iroquois from the French and Indian war? I don't think I've heard the war "Iroquois" ever spoken out loud since elementary school.

 

[Zenith Darksea]

Realism?

The French king is likely 4-6 lines down from the one that originally made the alliance. All he knows are stories from his great grandpa about why you allied, which he heard from HIS grandpa.

Jeez, as an American I'm trying to think of who we had alliances with 300 years ago. That'd be before even the revolution, soooo... I guess the Iroquois from the French and Indian war? I don't think I've heard the war "Iroquois" ever spoken out loud since elementary school.

Aaaaand another person who didn't understand the issue but decided to post a response anyway.

 

[sti]

Aaaaand another person who didn't understand the issue but decided to post a response anyway.

What you mean is another person who doesn't agree with you.

 

[AureliusBob]

once France colonizes an island the mission will go away and France can be your win-war button again, err I mean ally

 

[Simoleum]

Realism?

The French king is likely 4-6 lines down from the one that originally made the alliance. All he knows are stories from his great grandpa about why you allied, which he heard from HIS grandpa.

Jeez, as an American I'm trying to think of who we had alliances with 300 years ago. That'd be before even the revolution, soooo... I guess the Iroquois from the French and Indian war? I don't think I've heard the war "Iroquois" ever spoken out loud since elementary school.

That's one thing, but the point is I have been a firm ally in all their wars. If we were to follow your logic then this grand son which have only heard stories should recognize the fact that I've been a solid ally in every war they've fought.

Anyways, the point is that it happened over night, and that it was spawned by a game mechanic. And lol thanks caligulabob, let's hope so

 

[Sorellis]

Aaaaand another person who didn't understand the issue but decided to post a response anyway.

Whereas this was a quality post that contributed to the discussion. Well done!

I don't think this is that big of an issue. It does kinda suck as the Dutch player, but you just have to roll with it. This version of the alliance system is the best one we've had imho. On release alliances were way too fragile, and then in 1.3 they were way too stable. This current version manages to find a pretty good balance I think.

 

[TheDarkMaster]

That's one thing, but the point is I have been a firm ally in all their wars. If we were to follow your logic then this grand son which have only heard stories should recognize the fact that I've been a solid ally in every war they've fought.

Anyways, the point is that it happened over night, and that it was spawned by a game mechanic. And lol thanks caligulabob, let's hope so

This is represented by the trust system. So, if you've been an ally for a very long time, the nation you're an ally with with 'trust you implicitly'. Then they still swap to hostile opinion due to desired provinces once they get a boarder with you. Possibly even a boarder you helped them gain.

 

[Vishaing]

So France getting the mission to start colonizing SE Asia and thus desiring the provinces of the largest land owner in SE Asia is.... weird?
Why?
Sounds completely logical to me. Priorities shift, and today's enemies are tomorrows friends while tomorrows enemies are today's friends. Suck it up and Practice your Dance Moves.

P.S.: England and France were both allies of the Dutch and aided them in rebelling from the Spanish but that didn't stop either power from Declaring War on The Netherlands over Colonial and Trade related matters. In particular, please pay attention to France, because they kept see-sawing back and forth between supporting the English vs. the Dutch.

 

[TheDarkMaster]

So France getting the mission to start colonizing SE Asia and thus desiring the provinces of the largest land owner in SE Asia is.... weird?
Why?
Sounds completely logical to me. Priorities shift, and today's enemies are tomorrows friends while tomorrows enemies are today's friends. Suck it up and Practice your Dance Moves.

P.S.: England and France were both allies of the Dutch and aided them in rebelling from the Spanish but that didn't stop either power from Declaring War on The Netherlands over Colonial and Trade related matters. In particular, please pay attention to France, because they kept see-sawing back and forth between supporting the English vs. the Dutch.

In my case, Spain ended the Alliance because I owned one province in India. Later on they cancelled the mission and offered me a new alliance. Near as I can tell, it doesn't matter how much land you have there.

 

[Schmoekoeksklok]

So France getting the mission to start colonizing SE Asia and thus desiring the provinces of the largest land owner in SE Asia is.... weird?
Why?
Sounds completely logical to me. Priorities shift, and today's enemies are tomorrows friends while tomorrows enemies are today's friends. Suck it up and Practice your Dance Moves.

P.S.: England and France were both allies of the Dutch and aided them in rebelling from the Spanish but that didn't stop either power from Declaring War on The Netherlands over Colonial and Trade related matters. In particular, please pay attention to France, because they kept see-sawing back and forth between supporting the English vs. the Dutch.

It's weird because they only have to take one province to complete the mission. Yet the 'wants your provinces' modifier acts as though they need everything. It would be fine if the AI did actually want everything, but they don't, they'll finish the mission and then the modifier will be gone, but your alliance is still ruined for no real reason.