Okay... defense platforms are out of commission...

[Sinister2202]

Just like many of the unnecessary features in this game, like strike crafts. No improvements? Then forget about it. Poor design, might as well take them out of the game. Nobody really uses them anyways.

It was a good idea/experiment though, and I mean that. It's a real shame that it was poorly executed. I am not trying to bash the developers, but they should try and consider the value of the budget. Development on useless things like defense platforms and strike crafts are a waste of their time and budget, they are like redundant appendages. It's like they decided to put in good ideas that were not tested. High risk. But who would've known that, I guess.

It became a completely done deal when alloys came out. They just killed defense platforms. It's equally distasteful to think that it takes a whole planet dedicated to alloy production to have sufficient income to replenish lost defense platforms quickly, because market treats alloys unfairly. It's just really undesirable.

Speaking of which, why bother replenishing lost platforms? My healthcare plans cost me a lot as it is, I don't need arthritis on my fingers. There's no intuitive UI that players can utilize to replenish. We need to scroll and click away. So I'd rather avoid that entirely.

Good thing is, the feature is still there.

So what to do about them?

You know, these wonky littles need to be integrated with the star bases themselves. Better organization, keep it simple and clean yet effective.

Here's an idea. Defense platforms increase star base's armor, hull, and shield, along with the weapons they carry. These shouldn't be some separate "units" that you build, but rather, components for the star bases. Fortification if you will. An actual fortification that you can still design in ship design screen. We can then fit in all types of defense platforms that we designed, into the star base.

If the star base goes down in flames, they all go down with it. When it comes back up, the star base come back up with the defense platforms. Star base is repaired as usual, from low health to max. Except, with all the platforms, the max should be higher and take longer to reach it.

This way, you don't need to have separate numbers all scattered across the board: Star base's stats and defense platforms' stats, during battle. Because that is all pointless and meaningless information. Nobody cares for that but that sole target's. No one's going to hover their mouse over each short-lived individual platforms to see how your ships are doing against them.

But most importantly we won't have to build them over and over again anymore, and they'd be worthy AND fun to keep around. Sort of like double-edged sword. If enemy ends up capturing it, then well you have better prepare for a proper counter-attack.

Sure, they may be used as distractions so star base is under indirect fire, rather than an overwhelmingly direct fire. But I reckon it won't make much difference should the star base be reinforced with extra shield armor and hull with each defense platform, to level the playing field.

I don't know about this concept of star bases and defense platforms having to be separate entities. I don't know if it's just me, but I feel that is redundant as hell. What even was the point of having them separated, in the first place? And why give them the ship/unit treatment?

 

[ciurra]

Another solution to avoid excessive turtling which leads to a less dinamic game could be a disengagement system for defense platforms so that only a few of them get destroyed each combat

 

[beckermt]

Making the defense platforms automatically repair or having a "repair all" for some alloy cost would be a really solid improvement. If they need to be an alloy sink because they need to compete for resources with ships, then that's fine.

In their current state, defense platforms are too expensive and too tedious to use.

 

[beckermt]

Another solution to avoid excessive turtling which leads to a less dinamic game could be a disengagement system for defense platforms so that only a few of them get destroyed each combat

Realistically, what navy would keep shooting a platform that is disabled? They don't need to be completely destroyed. In fact, if they aren't, then the person taking the starbase can put them back into commission! Seems like a good tactic to me!

 

[Rhym3z]

Tbh I've been using the NSC mod for the longest time now and pretty much base most if not all of my playthroughs on a heavy focus on defense platforms. I honestly can't remember if NSC actually does anything to them, but it makes bastion starbases far more viable as a defense, couple that with platforms and a lot of time I run a pathetic fleet and just fend ai off on grand admiral and swoop in at the last minute and cap a few systems

 

[Askorti]

Tbh I've been using the NSC mod for the longest time now and pretty much base most if not all of my playthroughs on a heavy focus on defense platforms. I honestly can't remember if NSC actually does anything to them, but it makes bastion starbases far more viable as a defense, couple that with platforms and a lot of time I run a pathetic fleet and just fend ai off on grand admiral and swoop in at the last minute and cap a few systems

NSC makes the bases themselves much stronger and gives access to defense stations and fortresses too, which are actually pretty good. But the vanilla defense platform are useless.

 

[Adolf - Finite War]

Realistically, what navy would keep shooting a platform that is disabled? They don't need to be completely destroyed. In fact, if they aren't, then the person taking the starbase can put them back into commission! Seems like a good tactic to me!

I like the idea. Let defense plattforms go into a damaged state and let them be repaired for a fraction of the cost. The initial cost should also be lower since right now you're better of with ships and alloy production early on is too low to split off some of it for plattforms and upgrading them.

As for starbase-flipping that system deserve a rework as it isn't immersive at all.

You shot an enemy star fortress into submission and automatically soon after without any cost it switches control over to you and is as good as new. I think it should go into a damaged state too. The larger stations might even require armies for capture. (Re)conquerors should have to spent alloys and time on rebuilding the alternative would be to completely salvage the starbase or destroy it through additional bombardment. Tricky part here would be colonized systems without starbases and how and if the game can handle that.

 

[r3xm0rt1s]

Tricky part here would be colonized systems without starbases and how and if the game can handle that.

In 2.1 if a crisis fleet destroys the starbase, but you manage to save your colony, a new outpost will spawn once the system is cleared of hostiles. Have not played till crisis in 2.2 yet to confirm they did not break that too.

 

[AlanC9]

Depends,.Are we trying to keep the balance the same, help attackers, or help defenders?

 

[Hopit]

It was a good idea/experiment though, and I mean that. It's a real shame that it was poorly executed. I am not trying to bash the developers, but they should try and consider the value of the budget. Development on useless things like defense platforms and strike crafts are a waste of their time and budget, they are like redundant appendages. It's like they decided to put in good ideas that were not tested. High risk. But who would've known that, I guess.

Hey now, while strike crafts are completely useless, researching 1 rank of them does enable hangar bays that are more or less the best anti piracy thing you can build outside of actual ships

 

[Adolf - Finite War]

help attackers, or help defenders?

Why not both? Better and easier to manage plattforms for defenders, the option to more permanently hurt defenders for attackers.

They real deciding factor lies in the game creation anyway - more hyperlanes, wormholes and a slower tech progress and you can conquer the galaxy with corvettes

Speaking of strike craft against piracy - it's VERY far down the list but having some eye-candy visual feedback for that like we have with aircraft in HOI4 would be nice. Tradeships moving about pirates attacking them patrols intercepting...

 

[Zenopath]

I think they are just a bit too expensive is all. They need to be about 30% to 50% cheaper. Basically, they should be disposable defenses to help defenders survive in situations where holding on to a few vital starbases is the only thing keeping them from permanent collapse.

Having them survive a battle then only to switch sides to the attacker would actually put defender at massive disadvantage, as it would make any attempt to fortify a double edged sword.

 

[maxp779]

Yeah I like your solution OP. I don't understand why others are suggesting "why not just do X or lets do Y" instead. Having to replace them is an expensive pain in the ass. If they were cheaper its still a pain in the ass.

I would like them to become part of a starbase. That would make them a solid investment.

 

[AlanC9]

Why not both? Better and easier to manage plattforms for defenders, the option to more permanently hurt defenders for attackers.
.

My point was that if defense platforms aren't blown up, then an attacker ends up with the full power of the station and his fleet. This means that the defense platforms likely help him, not the defender.

 

[szmik]

Get rid of platforms, BUT allow us to design stations like ships.... make platforms integral parts of a station... allow us to build cheap or expensive stations as we need them. Number of platforms depending on size of the station.
In order not to allow enemies to use it, give us self-destruction switch = downgrade on conquest.
Quick, dirty, easy and actual solution to unnecessary woes.

 

[Razor Feather]

The two main reasons why defense platforms were added as separate units rather than as essentially just upgrades for the starbase were to ensure that a not quite successful attack on static defenses still did at least some lasting damage, and to prevent starbases from being able to use their full fire power from 100% to 0% health while the fleet they are fighting gets weaker as ships are lost.
Both of these reasons are still pretty valid I think, the problem is just that defense platforms are both rather expensive and very fleeting. Some combination of platform disengagement, platform fleet templates, and lowered cost would resolve those issues without adding in the problems they exist to solve.

 

[MarKr]

Yeah I like your solution OP. I don't understand why others are suggesting "why not just do X or lets do Y" instead.

Difference of opinions would be the reason. What might be a tedious chore for you might be acceptable or fun for others.

Having to replace them is an expensive pain in the ass. If they were cheaper its still a pain in the ass.

If the problem is the rebuilding, then it could be easily fixed by adding a "Defenses" tab into the Fleet manager and there player could make defense templates for Starbases (selecting how many and which types of platforms to build) and when some get destroyed in a battle, just click on "reinforce" button and they would auto-replenish with just a single click.
I mean...Starbases with platforms are basically just stationary fleets so I guess it should not be such a problem to give them a feature which normal fleets already have.

I would like them to become part of a starbase. That would make them a solid investment.

I am not sure how much effective would this be. If I remember correctly, one of the things that Wiz said back in time they were getting rig of doomstacks was that "bigger fleet wins because of the number of guns that are shooting" platforms are relatively weak but they add more guns to the "fleet" which is better than a starbase alone with limited number of weapons. Even if the platforms were reworked to "boost" armor/HP/shields of starbases, you would have crap load of points in these but still only have maximum of 13 weapons (Citadel) while in the current state where you can have platforms where each can have up to 4 weapons (if you go for full Small/missile slots) and Citadels can have up to 15 platforms which makes 60 guns and if you really want to dig in, you can build there Defense-Grid building for additional +8 platforms and Eternal Vigilance ascention perk adds another 5 this gets you to a total of 28 possible platforms which means 140 weapons and if you go for L size guns, it is still 70 weapons. It is likely you will lose many of them but it is also likely that they will take a substantial part of enemy fleet with them - a Citadel with 13 weapons would hardly get such result.

As I read comments and see these:

I think they are just a bit too expensive is all. They need to be about 30% to 50% cheaper. Basically, they should be disposable defenses(...)

NSC makes the bases themselves much stronger and gives access to defense stations and fortresses too, which are actually pretty good. But the vanilla defense platform are useless.

It brings me to another idea - the platforms could get cheaper as Zenopath suggests (which would make them cheaper to replace + the "reinforce" system mentioned above would give people less headache when replacing lost ones) and the Defense Stations and Fortresses could be brought back - these would be a lot better and also significantly more expensive. This would allow to build lots of cheap but weak platforms quickly, or invest a lot more resources but get a very heavily defended systems.

The Defense station and fortress models are in the game, it is a pitty they are not used anywhere.

 

[Felidae]

I am not sure how much effective would this be. If I remember correctly, one of the things that Wiz said back in time they were getting rig of doomstacks was that "bigger fleet wins because of the number of guns that are shooting" platforms are relatively weak but they add more guns to the "fleet" which is better than a starbase alone with limited number of weapons. Even if the platforms were reworked to "boost" armor/HP/shields of starbases, you would have crap load of points in these but still only have maximum of 13 weapons (Citadel) while in the current state where you can have platforms where each can have up to 4 weapons (if you go for full Small/missile slots) and Citadels can have up to 15 platforms which makes 60 guns and if you really want to dig in, you can build there Defense-Grid building for additional +8 platforms and Eternal Vigilance ascention perk adds another 5 this gets you to a total of 28 possible platforms which means 140 weapons and if you go for L size guns, it is still 70 weapons. It is likely you will lose many of them but it is also likely that they will take a substantial part of enemy fleet with them - a Citadel with 13 weapons would hardly get such result.

There's also the fleet cap megastructure which allows another 10 platforms, and if you're lucky enough to find the broken one, and build one yourself, that can be another 20 platforms on top of your number...

In the early game platforms add a lot of power to a starbase, and can easily be enough to throw back an early attack. Mid-game, yeah, they suffer vs fleets. In the end game, however, they get repeatables that increase both damage and hp by 10%, while also benefiting from all the other techs that increase damage, shields and armour. So if one is really invested in creating a fortress empire, that is possible.

I believe that platforms also benefit from that building that increases range, so combine that with the other building that slows enemy fleets, add the third building that increases fire rate, and you can certainly lay down a very decent amount of hurt on enemy fleets with the right setup.

Can they defeat fleets by themselves? No, not really. In that sense they could be considered wastes of alloys. On the other hand, if you have the spare alloys, every little bit can help. And I've had a couple of fully-built stations make some clutch independent holding actions against the Grey Flood, preserving the core of my empire while both the Khan and the Flood rampaged across the map...

 

[Roddo]

If they cannot stop a fleet, then why even bother investing in them?
I would like to one day wake up and say to myself: HEY. what about playing pacifist-isolist and just go frack it with regards of fleet and be able to just defend myself from day one to day Z with just platforms.

But no, you are right. It's just fine this way. I have to wait till end game with perks and repeatable techs (which by the way also apply to fleets) to be viable.
The entire game is like this, lots of pseudo options, but in reality none of them really matter because they are not correctly balanced.

 

[vladimirovalenina]

The easy solution would be to give stations a replenishment button like your fleets to easily replace lost stations. Also adding a couple larger classes of station would make defenses more interesting, but I don't think they're really necessary.