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Kat Tsun

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I just mean that it shouldn't be a trivial task to hold 15 billion aliens in bondage, with no men at all, when the explicit war goal is to murder every last one of those aliens.

Armies make it trivial.

It's so trivial it requires literally zero effort. You land on a planet, take it over with 30 Gene Warrior armies, leave. Repeat.

Requiring the player to plant fleets of a certain size over a planet to pacify it continuously is "putting effort" in. It sacrifices an actually valuable resource. Armies cost nothing. They are worthless to the game and worthless to the player. There's no cap for armies so there's no incentive to optimize them. Just spam the biggest ones you can with the best buffs.

The current blockade mechanic is a lot better than preference towards occupation. If you require the player to give up a limited and scarce resource to control a planet (ships/fleet cap), then you can break up doomstacks.

The downside is that you put a lot of pressure on micro play, which is awful in any game.
 

Cagliostro

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On the contrary, I think that you need to add a different dimension to war. Domination should require some kind of pacification. At the very least you should have to leave an army behind. If you expect to control five planets you should have enough armies to control five planets.

I mean, the armies themselves are not fun as they are and could be abstracted differently. My point is that while war is just 'having a giant fleet' war score is always going to be broken.
 

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Wait, you are wildly misunderstanding me.

I am not advocating for leaving fleets behind, period. I am saying that's what the CURRENT system amounts to, if you want to maximize war score. I'm saying you should have to do something other than fleets.
 

Cagliostro

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Armies make it trivial.

It's so trivial it requires literally zero effort. You land on a planet, take it over with 30 Gene Warrior armies, leave. Repeat.

Yes, and this is the point. They LEAVE. Why would the world stay subjugated without your army? As it is your army strength is only 'enough to take one planet', and they are used repeatedly on planets over and over again without taking casualties. That's the silly part.
 

Kat Tsun

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I'm not misunderstanding you.

I'm saying what you're saying has the opposite effect of what you think it does. Requiring players to keep a planet blockaded will reduce doomstacking because it will break the doomstacks up into bite-size fleets to control a large number of planets. This goes for both sides since you can't win a war in Stellaris by letting the enemy control all your planets.

Having armies in the game makes doomstacks viable because:

1) Armies have no cap or scarcity. They can be printed en masse without anything like "fleet cap" to control them. They are essentially open ended in quantity.
2) Planets can be controlled passively instead of requiring permanent devotion of scarce resources.

By eliminating armies and replacing them with ships, you accomplish two important things:

1) You place ships in their proper centerpiece place. They are the core element of gameplay, not armies. Armies are a sideshow in anything that isn't occupying planets. Then they just move onto the next planet and win.
2) You force players to devote limited resources in the form of ships, which are limited by fleet cap, which helps break doomstacks into manageable pieces that aren't simply a 150k blob followed by a 50 strong Gene Warrior stack slowly but surely dismantling your empire planet-by-planet.

Where we are now:

france.png

Where we should be:

spoiler]
may1940.png
 
Last edited:

methegrate

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No argument from me that warscore needs plenty of reweighting and rethinking, but I have to agree with other posters here... this sounds like a pretty reasonable outcome to me. You fought five opponents and completely ignored four of them, so naturally you beat the stuffing out of one while the others had a field day.

The computer outmaneuvered you. While you were focusing on a few planets, it ran around and took a bunch of yours. From a gameplay perspective this makes sense to me. It's good incentive not to doomstack. Either you didn't have the troops to fight all five (so, losing is reasonable) or you didn't split your forces to deal with the threat (so again, losing seems reasonable).

And while I'm not at all a fan of realism arguments, this does seem about right. The enemy is sitting in a whole bunch of your worlds holding lots of citizens hostage and offering to release them all in exchange for one planet. As an empire sim, sooner or later the public will lose faith in your argument of "I'm totally gonna turn it around eventually guys!"

Again, not saying there isn't plenty of work to be done, but my takeaway here would be next time don't ignore the enemy fleets tearing up your back yard.
 

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You are incorrect, for that is the current system, which is agreed by pretty much everyone to be broken.

If you want a game that 'feels' like you're oppressing an empire, that is never going to be it. First of all you can't rebalance war score meaningfully - you can't make any planet 'worth' more than others, or the player will simply cherry-pick them. 'Holding the wargoal' is meaningless, because holding the wargoal is effortless. So wars that require you to do anything different than any other wars are basically impossible to craft.

But here's the real thing - Stellaris is never, ever, going to be meaningful when the game is limited to simply one type of troop and how much you have of it in total. There's a thread practically every week complaining about how empty it feels, and that is because war is 100% about fleets. Like, as you said, there is literally nothing else that matters. It is not difficult to envision the future of a game in which the only meaningful exchange is 'whose is bigger'. EU or CK would be pointless if there was no strategy or attrition. Imagine if it was just 'i have 100,000 men, he has 80,000 - i will win, and thereby subdue whatever i am able to demand without further effort'. That is the current state of this game - do you even stop to look at a planet before you conquer it? Blockading a bunch of planets with small fleets is not real strategy, it's busy work. It's like 'what a PITA, his navy got past me, so now I have to chase it'. Have you ever gotten to the blockading stage and LOST a war?
 

methegrate

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Armies make it trivial.

It's so trivial it requires literally zero effort. You land on a planet, take it over with 30 Gene Warrior armies, leave. Repeat.

Requiring the player to plant fleets of a certain size over a planet to pacify it continuously is "putting effort" in. It sacrifices an actually valuable resource. Armies cost nothing. They are worthless to the game and worthless to the player. There's no cap for armies so there's no incentive to optimize them. Just spam the biggest ones you can with the best buffs.

The current blockade mechanic is a lot better than preference towards occupation. If you require the player to give up a limited and scarce resource to control a planet (ships/fleet cap), then you can break up doomstacks.

The downside is that you put a lot of pressure on micro play, which is awful in any game.

I'm all for anything that breaks up doomstacking, but I don't think this would actually help. I think you'd end up with one of two situations:

A. The offensive player attacks planets and leaves ships to hold it. The defensive player follows behind with a doomstack and picks those scattered fleets off, then takes out the bulk of the offensive player's fleet (which is now at reduced strength, because he had to scatter it among several planets and couldn't rebuild due to fleet cap).

B. The players doomstack it out, then whoever wins goes around blockading planets once there's no major enemy force left to harass his fleets.

Unless I'm missing something?
 

Kat Tsun

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I'm all for anything that breaks up doomstacking, but I don't think this would actually help. I think you'd end up with one of two situations:

A. The offensive player attacks planets and leaves ships to hold it. The defensive player follows behind with a doomstack and picks those scattered fleets off, then takes out the bulk of the offensive player's fleet (which is now at reduced strength, because he had to scatter it among several planets and couldn't rebuild due to fleet cap).

B. The players doomstack it out, then whoever wins goes around blockading planets once there's no major enemy force left to harass his fleets.

Unless I'm missing something?

That's mostly correct. Both are possible and happen currently.

I'm not sure how having planets eat armies will do anything to stop it, though, which is the major point I'm arguing against.

A more permanent solution is probably to have a fleet power cap for each fleet. Instead of allowing 100k doomstacks, cap it. You can only have fleets of a certain size before they become "uncontrollable" and start getting detrimental modifiers to their combat scores. -5% damage, -10% damage, etc. successively applied to each tier or percent it's over the max limit for that fleet. In DH, you can only have Corps of sizes up to four divisions (HQs modify this a bit) before they start getting huge ass negative modifiers that kill their ability to attack.

Of course, you still doomstack, but now you have to coordinate a doomstack over 20k blobs instead of a single 100k blob. It's the only way off the top of my head that would improve the situation. Getting rid of armies is just nixing a tedious and boring part of the game that adds literally zero value.
 

methegrate

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You still doomstack, but now you have to coordinate a doomstack over 20k blobs instead of a single 100k blob. It's the only way off the top of my head that would improve the situation. Getting rid of armies is just nixing a tedious and boring part of the game that adds literally zero value.

Would that help though? Why wouldn't I just throw my five blobs at the same system? Or if it's a system malus, I'm throwing five blobs at five systems, which I guess is better but I don't really know how much it adds in terms of strategic gameplay. Am I really facing any new challenges, or am I just right clicking five times instead of once?

It has always seemed to me that the best way to break up doomstacks is to balance the game for rock/paper/scissors. If doomstack (rock) is one strategy, there needs to be another very effective strategy that doomstacking can't beat (paper), and a third strategy (scissors) that beats the second but which is susceptible to the doomstack.

It's why I 100% disagree with the OP. I think raiding should absolutely be a viable, highly effective strategy, because it accomplishes three things:

- Encourages you to break up doomstacks,
- Through emergent gameplay rather than arbitrary caps (always preferable where possible), and
- By adding new strategic challenges to the game

The computer seemed to do a good job of beating his doomstack strategy and basically pulled off a guerrilla victory, zipping around and scoring cheap, high-volume wins while he paraded around his big, shiny fleet.

Edit... realized I should make this more relevant to the thread...
 
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I'm not saying 'planets eat armies' is the magic solution to all problems. We don't even need 'armies' in the form they're in now. I'm saying that making planet control require more effort than just an on/off switch is necessary to the development of the game. That could take have many aspects to it, including production, influence, leaders, species and empire choices, tech, etc.

Suppose it was viable, through tech, ethics, whatever, to make your planets *very* difficult to control. You could more easily run a strategy that depends on the inability of the enemy to control your planets, which would give your fleet more flexibility. Contrarily you could not worry about controlling any planets, and just try to dominate and bombard as per the current system.

It's an extra vector in a system that *desperately* needs an extra vector. Not only that but it is a painfully obvious vector.
 

Kat Tsun

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Would that help though? Why wouldn't I just throw my five blobs at the same system? Or if it's a system malus, I'm throwing five blobs at five systems, which I guess is better but I don't really know how much it adds in terms of strategic gameplay. Am I really facing any new challenges, or am I just right clicking five times instead of once?

It has always seemed to me that the best way to break up doomstacks is to balance the game for rock/paper/scissors. If doomstack (rock) is one strategy, there needs to be another very effective strategy that doomstacking can't beat (paper), and a third strategy (scissors) that beats the second but which is susceptible to the doomstack.

It's why I 100% disagree with the OP. I think raiding should absolutely be a viable, highly effective strategy, because it accomplishes three things:

- Encourages you to break up doomstacks,
- Through emergent gameplay rather than arbitrary caps (always preferable where possible), and
- By adding new strategic challenges to the game

The computer seemed to do a good job of beating his doomstack strategy and basically pulled off a guerrilla victory, zipping around and scoring cheap, high-volume wins while he paraded around his big, shiny fleet.

Edit... realized I should make this more relevant to the thread...

Oh, I see now.

I don't disagree with this. It's a better solution than I've thought of.
 

ZomgK3tchup

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Look, if you want a realistic overhaul of war score mechanics, you have to include the concept that holding on to a packed civilized world full of billions of people (deeply alien people, who may in fact know for a fact you plan to exterminate and/or eat them) is somehow challenging, and perhaps more challenging than blowing their navy out of space. Once you start having worlds that are difficult to secure, war can start becoming something other than doomstack vs. doomstack.
This is exactly what I want, actually.

There was a series from the 80s called Legend of the Galactic Heroes that addressed this exact topic. After one of the space empires lost a super fortress that defended it from invasion, it allowed its enemy to invade and conquer several of its outlying systems with the knowledge that the conquers would have to not only secure these planets with their military but also feed the civilian population. The invaders, unable to do so, were driven from the conquered worlds by an rebellious populous that they thought they were liberating.

It would be a step in the right direction to include this into the new global food mechanic: if you don't want your occupied population to rebel against you, you either need to provide them with some minimal standard of living or keep sizable garrisons on those worlds.
 

Cagliostro

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It would be a step in the right direction to include this into the new global food mechanic: if you don't want your occupied population to rebel against you, you either need to provide them with some minimal standard of living or keep sizable garrisons on those worlds.

Also would make things like 'our species fights poorly' or 'our species is a hive mind' or 'this planet has dangerous wildlife' or 'we have killer xenomorphs/robots' an actual serious consideration. As it stands armies now are just another kind of doomstack - they are used to do 'enough' damage that they won't be damaged themselves, and then they just move on to the next planet. Once the entire army of your galactic civilization can defeat one planet (which happens three minutes in), that aspect of the game has ended completely. It's just a huge missed opportunity.
 

Zernos

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I got hyped again for the game after the admittedly impressive new expansion. So I started playing again . God my memory is short with this game.. I start a war to liberate two planets. I am alone and strong against 5 minors that surround me. and I just lost.. My empire is large with five sectors surrounding my core worlds in the middle. The war starts I immediately defeat the main enemy occupying his 3 planets. Meanwhile the other minors have a field day with my sectors occupying planet after planet. I win every engagement and start occupying the planets of the other minors. Of course this is stellaris so naturally you cant knock opponents out of the war for.. reasons. Then suddenly a proposal for peace demanding my home world! I check the warscore -54 against me! ( All my core worlds were under my command by the way the enemies had just occupied some fringe world sectors) This is the main opponent with all his planets occupied mind you. I ll just decline I say to my self and then I see it..100 influence cost for declining!!! I have some hundred hours of stellaris under my belt and I never saw this before. Is this new? This is ridiculous! Then he starts spamming the proposal, I run out of influence, I auto accept, I rage quit and I come here to vent.

How is this a thing?? Give me penalties, war exhaustion, unrest, just anything I can have a say and deal with but this?? Auto accepting peace offer?? no this is just bad gameplay even total war games haven't stooped this low. What creative genius is behind a decision like that? Ha s he/she ever played a Paradox game before?

Why are things so automated and restrictive in this game for Gods sake? Wars just end abruptly with enemies surrendering and the player auto accepting, you cant demand things in real time and just have to stick to pre declaration demands, you cant send a counter proposal in diplomacy, forced sectors (ok this is just for sympathy points I like sectors) , artificial leader cup and so on.

This a Paradox game, things like these are solved years ago, why aren't they standardized in every game? Is it to feature them in some future DLC that the community here will cheer about as if its some new feature? I get it that stellaris is a new game and all that, but no just no. As the title says this is just ridiculous.

You could have saved the game before you started the war to try different strategies. One strategy would be to let them attack your space first, and respond to those attacks with a giant fleet. Since its 5 on 1 it sounds like you grossly underestimated the fact that the AI would have far more maneuverability than you. I tend to also focus on one big doomstack of fleets, and this, in general is a bad idea. Hell, even MAINTAINING a giant fleet in this game is hard. And when it gets wiped out, good luck spending the next 100 years in game trying to come back. Plays like a Paradox title to me.
 

methegrate

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Oh, I see now.

I don't disagree with this. It's a better solution than I've thought of.

The limit of my creativity, though, is I'm not sure what the third strategy should be. Warscore can be balanced to make the OP's situation even more common, so that when someone rolls up a doomstack you split the fleet and take ten planets for every one they do. So far so good, and losing just means you got outplayed. But then without our "scissors," raiding would just become the game-winning strategy. It would be the exact opposite problem of now with everyone racing to see how few troops they can use to take a planet.
 

TheDeadlyShoe

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I think what really fills the rage bar is losing your homeworld. It's just stupid. The HW should be invulnerable to peace deals until the rest of the empire is mostly dismantled.
 

Zernos

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I think what really fills the rage bar is losing your homeworld. It's just stupid. The HW should be invulnerable to peace deals until the rest of the empire is mostly dismantled.
True it is not fun to watch your homeworld be enslaved, purged, and plundered as your people soon fall to waste from giant sentient mushrooms after HOURS UPON HOURS of gameplay, but that is what makes it a strategy. You could just as easily demand the alien HW and pull the same stunt. To me the game is quite a pisser because you often spend HOURS building up only to see it all come CRASHING DOWN
 

Felfox

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While I believe everyone is unanimous in their agreement that the Warscore needs work, I believe what we need is both a semi reworked Warscore as well as a much more influential influence system tied directly to warfare.

Honestly the warscore system seems fine to me in theory, tallying each and every battle and action to see their worth and play them against one another to artificially determine who is -winning- in a form of galactic politics. The problem I feel is how the game tallies and how limited your actions really are during it all. On one hand I feel like loosing to a bunch of raids and such from multiple armies should be a no brainer, but I also agree with the OP that if he was so gosh darn powerful comparatively, then their attempts at making him lose because of an artificial influence shenanigans is a bit contrived. The game needs a way to alter war goals, make war goals actually influence the outcomes more, give more and varied ways to fight said wars as well as have ways to knock an opponent out of the fight when dealing with a multi-war.

I really like the influence currency as a great way of expressing how much your race agrees or doesn't agree with your actions, as well as the pressures placed upon or assisting your governments in this task. I feel that wars need to be tied to this or at the very least derived from while also using warscore as a way of helping sway said politics.

*When you start a war, your current Influence should be copied over to a war influence (depending on your faction types you may see a negative or positive to your starting total)

*This influence can be spent on say, I dunno, hiring mercs, buying ships for your allies, changing/adding/subtracting your wargoals, using spies to check out enemy systems ahead of time.

*Wargoals should matter. For every month you haven't attained your wargoal, you lose influence, however succeeding gives you a sudden instant huge boon. Defending a wargoal nets you a positive each month but a massive decrease if you fail (at least until recaptured)

*Ceding planets should only matter on the ones you captured, while liberating can be any (Except homeworld) Homeworlds should also not be able to be ceded but can be made a vassal. (Vassal should only be possible if enemy fleet is taken down to 5 or 10% or whatever % of your own fleet, or you managed to capture their homeworld)

*Destroying mining/research Stations should have an increasing warscore cost based on the % versus remaining stations. That way even enough raiding of planets and even stations could be seen as taking out enough resources as to make warfare unprofitable. (Materialistic races may be affected more than others for example)

*Capturing sector worlds, vs core worlds, vs homeworlds, vs wargoal worlds should also see a varying level of warscore points differences. Generally sector worlds are already the ones you don't care about as much or are slaver worlds and such. (Individualistic empires may care a lot more though since all are precious.)

*Another major one is armies in general. Depending on the population of the enemy homeworld, you should have to leave a certain level of army strength nearby to keep it going. However depending on the type of army should change some outcomes. High moral damage would see the world go quiet and the enemy loses influence faster. High martial damage could see less force actually required in general to hold it. Where as the more dangerous ones like xenomorphs, titans and even mindless robots may see full on structure damage or population purges!

*Lastly, the reason I'd like to see a war based influence tally be separate is because I feel it should be affected the most. Have a bigger fleet than your enemies, gain war influence! Be a warlike race and war is still going on, who cares, war is great! No matter what, war still costs resources so the longer it goes, the higher the cost for everyone. Your warscore not looking too hot, people are starting to lose faith so down it goes. Warscore looking good even though your fleet is pathetic, well at least the people have some hope! Got those wargoals you set out for, good, here's some more influence! The idea being that even if your warscore isn't looking too hot, you can always find ways to fight back or help your allies. On the flip side, perhaps you could spend said influence to force a battle surrender based on warscore difference between you and your opponent. A battle surrender would mean they are effectively out of the fight when it comes to war on multiple factions. Forcing a faction to surrender would be a huge warscore boost, making the next few factions much likelier to surrender or stop fighting as well.

Anyway that was probably too long and no one will read but I would like to see a much more in depth take on warfare in general because it's definitely a sore spot in the game right now. While the OP should have been watching his warscore and I like that he was beaten out by hit and runs and raids, the fact that he was taken out when he could have just turned around and stomped them shows the game is too limited/doesn't differentiate enough between what is actually a lose and what is still strongly in someone's favor.
 

Sinister2202

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Speaking of restrictive... no matter how much of a "galactic menace" you are considered to be, it seems that you are still honor-bound to truces... But that could just be that EU4 has "stability" and Stellaris don't. Still, it could've used something else than stability.