Ok let´s talk about that absurd early NGF formation

[Beagá]

Yes, we absolutely have a prussian fetish here at Paradox

You have a ton of experience at the game, playing a major that is geared like prussia is isn't going to be super challenging, this is just the way it is. An AI can never come close to a really experienced player and without AI germany the balance in europe is lacking late game.

Sure, agree totally that a strong Germany is crucial - BUT the problem is that even with such easy NGF formation, even for the AI, the real Reich often doesn´t forms. So I think balance must be reworked if possible. I´d suggest a rework of literacy values across the board (mostly to nerf France and buff UK, but Prussia and Austria too probably) and removal of prussian investments in Saxony and maybe even put austrian ones. Also Austria is TOO stable - through I don´t think you should copy them, PDM mod´s hungarian revolution is a very interesting way of creating trouble for them.

Finally, if possible a rework of starting diplomacy values, mostly to try (somehow) to make France "forever alone" more often.

As for wat... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angkor_wat

 

[Darsara]

Wat.

Yeah. There's a reason I deliberately started a war with Denmark just to get a stronger Ally.

 

[Dagon1]

I think as well, that the issue is Germany and not the NGF. The AI seems most of the time too weak to beat France. In my games France teams often up with Austria and Austria often can keep up with the military of Prussia/NGF and France is most of the time stronger than that.
Maybe there should be an option to form Germany without winning against France or the crown from the gutter if some conditions are met that reflect general disapointment of the people and a wish for revenge.
How about a boost in pan-nationalism after a defeat against France in a war for alsace-lorraine that starts a revolt that doesnt turn Germany to a democratic country?

 

[blaidd]

A user has made a tool available via the Mod section which analyzes the save game files and recovers information about wars. I used it on my old saves to reconstruct approximately when NGF/Germany formed.


Game 1 - Bohemia-Moravia: The AI should have had an easy time in this game since I weakened Austria and fought it for Slovakia
- 1873 - NGF formed.
- 1887 - Franco-Prussian War
- 1890 -Germany formed

Game 2 - Spain: I did not meddle in continental affairs for most of the game
- 1844 - Saxon-Saxon War, started by Saxony, finished by Prussia annexing them.
- 1859 - Prussian-Austrian Brother's War
- 1862 - Franco-Prussian War
- 1863 - AI forms NGF and then Germany immediately. If I recall correctly UK had sphered Denmark for awhile.

Game 3 - Russia: I did not ally with France and did not meddle in continental affairs
- 1857 - Franco-Prussian War
- 1864 - Prussian-Austria Brother's War
- 1870 - Again they do Prussia -> NGF -> Germany all at once.
I'm pretty sure the same thing happened with the UK.

Installed the Beta Patch

Game 4 - Italy
- There are no recorded wars for Prussia
- 1864 - Franco-Prussian War launched by the North German Federation
- 1875 - Germany formed

Game 5 - Philippines: This is the one I thought Prussia was surely going to lose.
- Again there are no recorded wars for Prussia, but this must be a bug in the tool as they lost a great deal of land.
- 1861 - Austrian-North German Brother's War - NGF and Ottomans vs Austria and France. NGF won.
- 1867 - Austrian-North German Brother's War - NGF alone against Austria and France. NGF won.
- 1873 - North German Liberation of Schlesien vs Austria. NGF won.
- 1874 - North German Liberation of French Rheinland vs France and Italy. NGF won.
- 1880 - Franco-Prussian War - NGF and Spain vs France and Austria. NGF won.
- 1880 - Germany forms.

Game 6 - UK: I was allied with NGF, but they never called me into the unification wars. I did not fight France, Russia, or Austria until after Germany formed.
- Several wars are listed for Prussia, but they're my conquests in India
- 1846 - NGF forms.
- 1863 - North German-Austrian Brothers War
- 1865 - Franco-Prussian War - (France + Russia) - won
- 1865 - Germany forms

So while those are rarely pre-1850s bad you may be on to something. It's definitely forming NGF faster in the beta patch. And there we have this:

- AI no longer obsessed with sphering the Kiel canal unless it has good reason to do so.

Why hello UK, not so interested in Denmark anymore are we?

Also notice that the VERY FASTEST time is when I played the UK. And I didn't influence any German minors or Denmark or anything. Hm...

 

[wildbillhdmax01]

Spoiler

A user has made a tool available via the Mod section which analyzes the save game files and recovers information about wars. I used it on my old saves to reconstruct approximately when NGF/Germany formed.


Game 1 - Bohemia-Moravia: The AI should have had an easy time in this game since I weakened Austria and fought it for Slovakia
- 1873 - NGF formed.
- 1887 - Franco-Prussian War
- 1890 -Germany formed

Game 2 - Spain: I did not meddle in continental affairs for most of the game
- 1844 - Saxon-Saxon War, started by Saxony, finished by Prussia annexing them.
- 1859 - Prussian-Austrian Brother's War
- 1862 - Franco-Prussian War
- 1863 - AI forms NGF and then Germany immediately. If I recall correctly UK had sphered Denmark for awhile.

Game 3 - Russia: I did not ally with France and did not meddle in continental affairs
- 1857 - Franco-Prussian War
- 1864 - Prussian-Austria Brother's War
- 1870 - Again they do Prussia -> NGF -> Germany all at once.
I'm pretty sure the same thing happened with the UK.

Installed the Beta Patch

Game 4 - Italy
- There are no recorded wars for Prussia
- 1864 - Franco-Prussian War launched by the North German Federation
- 1875 - Germany formed

Game 5 - Philippines: This is the one I thought Prussia was surely going to lose.
- Again there are no recorded wars for Prussia, but this must be a bug in the tool as they lost a great deal of land.
- 1861 - Austrian-North German Brother's War - NGF and Ottomans vs Austria and France. NGF won.
- 1867 - Austrian-North German Brother's War - NGF alone against Austria and France. NGF won.
- 1873 - North German Liberation of Schlesien vs Austria. NGF won.
- 1874 - North German Liberation of French Rheinland vs France and Italy. NGF won.
- 1880 - Franco-Prussian War - NGF and Spain vs France and Austria. NGF won.
- 1880 - Germany forms.

Game 6 - UK: I was allied with NGF, but they never called me into the unification wars. I did not fight France, Russia, or Austria until after Germany formed.
- Several wars are listed for Prussia, but they're my conquests in India
- 1846 - NGF forms.
- 1863 - North German-Austrian Brothers War
- 1865 - Franco-Prussian War - (France + Russia) - won
- 1865 - Germany forms

So while those are rarely pre-1850s bad you may be on to something. It's definitely forming NGF faster in the beta patch. And there we have this:



Why hello UK, not so interested in Denmark anymore are we?

Also notice that the VERY FASTEST time is when I played the UK. And I didn't influence any German minors or Denmark or anything. Hm...

Nice job with the list!!!

 

[BootOnFace]

Thank you blaidd.

 

[blaidd]

Honestly, I think the prepatch situation of Prussia being unable to form NGF because the UK was obsessively trying to sphere Denmark is probably worse than the current situation. From both a game balance and immersion standpoint. It's silly they were managing to fulfill all the requirements to form Germany before they could form the NGF. My guess is that after the Brother's War the Prussia AI was able to dump all its influence into Denmark and that's how it was finally taking it from the UK's sphere since it had a border and the UK didn't and was also distracted elsewhere while the Prussian AI was frantically devoted to influencing Denmark as the last component that it needed to upgrade itself.

Could explain why so many people never see the NGF/Germany form too. I'd be curious if people are seeing it more often in the patch. Prussia + German Minors can get stomped a lot harder by France or Austria than a fully formed NGF just because they'll be defeated in detail by France, so if the Prussian AI starts opportunistically trying to fulfill the requirements for Germany because it can't sphere Denmark, then it's more likely to get beat down to where it can't recover easily.

I wonder if this is why the Prussian AI seemed to be coded to always declare war on Denmark on Day 1 in AHD.

I don't think it's necessarily broken the way it is now or that it should be fixed, but it seems like the behavior the OP described is likely an unintended consequence of them fixing several AI influence bugs.

 

[blaidd]

I don't think I still have any AHD saves to check, but I would think that the NGF has probably always formed roughly as fast as it does in 3.02b because of annexing those provinces from Denmark the first year. Austria shouldn't be doing a better or worse job of protecting Saxony than before.

 

[Beagá]

Well one thing is certain, if they aren´t bled by wars, France is a VERY tough nut to crack - 1857 in my Prussia > NGF game and they are rank 2 in everything! The german war machine is beggining to move, I´ll take Schleswig soon from Scandinavia then make my move versus France.

 

[grommile]

Well one thing is certain, if they aren´t bled by wars, France is a VERY tough nut to crack - 1857 in my Prussia > NGF game and they are rank 2 in everything! The german war machine is beggining to move, I´ll take Schleswig soon from Scandinavia then make my move versus France.

France by itself is just as easy for a human to beat in 3.01 or 3.02b as in 2.31, because it ultimately ends up relying on its Liberty NV's huge mobilization.

The real problem for Germany is that France usually spends the entire game buddied up with Russia. The only times it doesn't do so seem to be when the Pope decides to humiliate the Grand Duke of Tuscany and France ends up at war with Austria as a result.

 

[Beagá]

France by itself is just as easy for a human to beat in 3.01 or 3.02b as in 2.31, because it ultimately ends up relying on its Liberty NV's huge mobilization.

Every country is easy for a human to beat. I can play Austria and get a province from Prussia in 1836 if I ally with France. Does that mean Austria is OP and needs a nerf? Not necessarily (through they can become ahistorically powerful quite easily, but that´s for another topic). What a human does is hardly an argument for balancing the game, because the human can do almost anything. The problem is that the AI can´t perform like a human, thus resulting in eternal NGF.

Instead of theory-crafting I´d suggest people do like blaidd and me and post the outcomes of their games to see the percentages of games where both NGF and REich are formed and when. I´d say that if 80% of games (naturally, either hands-off games or games with minors) have NGF before 1860 and 50% have Reich formed before 1880, the game is balanced.

 

[Arentak]

I see NGF form almost every time, and Germany usually forms, but not quite as often as NGF.

 

[unmerged(376721)]

Hello everyone, interesting discussion, and blaidd, fantastic tabulation!

I had played only 3 games so far, 1 regular Germany, 1 Greater Germany and 1 the UK. Obviously the sample size is too small and too much human intervention. But still, allow me to share my thought.

One: Forming NGF is too easy, either by human or AI. As many of you had rightly pointed out, Saxony seems to be the issue here.

Two: It seems that the AI has difficulty forming Germany. Too many obstacles; the rigid diplomacy situation, manpower (including mobilized troop) differences between France and NGF, AND, once NGF failed, the opportunistic neighbor (read: Austria) will pounce. These obstacles are too overwhelming and too unfair to NGF.

I think manpower difference is maybe the most ahistorical of all. If I remember my history correct, NGF actually mobilized more troops than the French during Franco-Prussia war. Maybe to take away the Equality national value from France, but give them higher regular army count? Another way the NV is unfair is that, it makes France bouncing back from setback super easily, whilst once NGF’s professional troop is gone, they are very susceptible to crisis, rebel secession and hostile neighbor. Maybe historical, but from game play perspective, too unfair to the AI NGF.

Diplomatically, it is pretty hopeless for AI NGF stuck between France and Russia too, not to mention Austria at the south. We human know how to choose the right timing for declaration, but the AI pretty much just declare war after N&I, and the result is predictable. Again, the one alliance per GP rule is completely arbitrage, but within this framework, maybe we can add a one-time “Otto Von Bismarck” event for NGF to break the Franco-Russo alliance in 50s?

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Nerfing the French

NGF/Germany aside, it is my opinion that France is still too OP, relative to NGF, or the UK, and it snowballed. Perhaps it has to do with Germany not forming. Again, from game play perspective, not good. I think most of us would like to see France and Germany deucing it out.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The UK, relative to Germany and France

Having just completed an UK game, it is my opinion that the UK need a lot more help. There is already a thread about the UK’s difficulty. I just want to add two thing relative to Germany and France.

In my Germany game, Saxony province gave me > 1000 industrial point by 1836, whilst South East England only gave me 700+ point. These two being the most industrial states for respective game. My play style has been consistent.

Second, at game start, the UK has 75% Brit and 25% Irish, totaling 6.3m (excluding colonial population), with respective literacy of 55% and 10%, compare to France, 8m at 60% literacy, and Prussia, 85% German, 15% Polish, totaling 3.5m, and respective literacy of 70% and 25%. And they started out with 35, 33 and 28 techs researched respectively. Judging from AI performance playing these countries, I think France is the one that need a little nefing. And Irish literacy is dragging down the UK too much.

 

[cheese1]

You're not thinking about all those german players that wanna complete world conquest

 

[Phalanxia]

I think manpower difference is maybe the most ahistorical of all. If I remember my history correct, NGF actually mobilized more troops than the French during Franco-Prussia war. Maybe to take away the Equality national value from France, but give them higher regular army count?

Nah, what happened is that NGF was much faster and more efficient at mobilising than France was. About half of all French reserves reported to their mobilisation stations only to find that their units had already left for the front without them.

 

[Naselus]

Nah, what happened is that NGF was much faster and more efficient at mobilising than France was. About half of all French reserves reported to their mobilisation stations only to find that their units had already left for the front without them.

This, French reserves were actually much larger - they just had a mobilization timetable straight out of 1634. By the time the French had fully mobilized, Paris had fallen.

 

[k-59]

Let's see.

Game 1, France: No NGF or Germany for obvious reasons.
Game 2, Bavaria: NGF formed sometime before 1861. Germany didn't form until 1891 as result of me being a GP.
Game 3, Belgium: NGF formed sometime before 1867. Germany formed in 1887.
Game 4, Russia: NGF formed between 1847 and 1850. Germany formed in 1867.
Game 5, USA #1: NGF formed between 1876 and 1891. Germany formed between 1908 and 1913.
Game 6, USA #2: NGF formed between 1838 and 1863. Germany formed in 1863.

 

[MJAnderson]

First game with HOD. I'm USA and mainly stayed out of continental affairs except to beat up on England/Netherlands. (Silly me, I thought England would be the world power and now I see it's always France). NGF formed and NGF/Italy got into a war with Austria. Won the war but was bled dry. France/Russia pounced and started the first Great War. Gobbled up tons of NGF territory on either end and forced reparations. I allied with NGF to contain France but it's 1921 and Germany never formed. I'm #1, France #2, A socialist GB is #3 ( I don't know how...India has been under rebel control for 20 years), Japan #4 and NGF #5.