Ok let´s talk about that absurd early NGF formation

[Beagá]

Since some people here had doubts Prussia is easy mode, I gave it a try. Snatched Java early, then went for Mexico and Venezuela (as usual, to get more accepted POPs by assimilating minorities). Meanwhile doing the usual diplo game.

1843 and guess what? NGF already.

24 four years before historical date.

That´s not the real problem however. IF (and it´s a big IF) I´ve had already fought Austria and beat them, ok. However, I didn´t. Austria sucks balls with keeping spherelings. It´s so pathetically easy to do even AI can do it, as everyone here has already seen.

I seriously question this change and dunno if someone has a hidden prussian fetish at Paradox, but that breaks the game in many ways. It means the only real challenge is playing Austria or another german minor.

 

[dipwood]

What about UK, USA, France, Russia, Japan? Prussia was actually weakened quite a bit by HoD, both in how army supply works now, by France's buff, and by an 1850 tech requirement to form Germany.

Any big nation you pick is gonna be easy by virtue of how much better players are than the AI.

 

[blaidd]

What change are you questioning?

They made it HARDER to form the North German Federation in Heart of Darkness. Before you could do the whole Greater Germany in just a couple of years.

 

[Beagá]

... Even the AI does it. Before 1845 even.

In ALL games I´ve played, apart naturally from the one I´ve played as Austria. I´m not saying before was harder, I´m just saying it´s still ridiculously easy.

 

[blaidd]

1850 tech requirement to form Germany.

I believe the tech requirement is only for the Assert Hegemony war goal. I think you can still form Germany earlier than that if you manage to meet all the conditions.

 

[Thanik]

So you want game like Japan in AHD or vanilla? Waiting 40 years to be interesting?

 

[Beagá]

Oh boy.

Dude, it´s not about not forming NGF early. It´s about forming NGF 24 years earlier without firing a single shot, due to many reasons, among them stupid Austria sphering AI. Too difficult to understand or I have to draw?

 

[blaidd]

Well I agree with him that the AI forms Germany too easily and Germany is insanely powerful. However there are tons of people on this forum saying that AI Prussia is under powered and they never see Germany form at all. So it's probably just an anomaly. In CK2, I often see the "horribly under-powered" Almoravids invading France and winning. It's just one of those things. Different people seem to have vastly different experiences with the AI in Paradox games. In my HoD games the UK is insanely powerful and often invades France and just destroys them, but there is a 9 page thread here about how the UK is weak and always gets conquered by France.

 

[Thanik]

#Beagá
Austrian diplomacy AI is smart, if they will fight with only Prussia, not with/in France, Italy and low countries.

#blaidd
Also I saw many games without forming NGF, and many games where England take half Frnace, and when France take half of Britain.
I love this type of random

 

[Slym]

Endgame Vicky 2 isn't balanced if Prussia doesn't form the NGF at the very least. It needs to happen to keep the game from being super dumb. So either you railroad it super hard, or you make it easy enough that the AI can do it consistently.

 

[Beagá]

If the problem is France becoming too pwerful and trumping Prussia if NGF delays too much, then nerf France. Or Russia if it´s also part of the problem.

I´ll say again, the problem isn´t early NGF, but early NGF with no effort at all. Is there a way to edit the AI so that Austria forsakes italian minors and uses influence elsewhere?

 

[blaidd]

#blaidd
Also I saw many games without forming NGF, and many games where England take half Frnace, and when France take half of Britain.
I love this type of random

I haven't seen one yet in HoD where the NGF didn't form. I don't think I've actually seen one where Germany didn't form by the end. And over half of them were Greater Germany because the AI annexed Austria. But I do believe that sometimes Prussia gets defeated by Austria/France/Russia. And I do believe that sometimes UK gets beat by France.

Thing is it just takes so long to play through an entire game that people don't have that many samples to go on. They see something happening a few times over the course of a few games and they think that all games must happen that same way when really there is a lot of luck and randomness involved which can completely change the outcome. I'm on my 6th full game in HoD right now, but I know I definitely haven't seen everything yet.

 

[Beagá]

Well from my sample:

1- Sweden game: NGF formed 1846.
2- Netherlands game: NGF formed 1849.
3- Austria game: nope (obvious reasons. Heh)
4- Prussia game: 1843.

As for Reich forming, that is where things become tricky. Even then I think it´s wrong to make it easier to happen by making NGF a cakewalk to achieve. Don´t change the tree, change the "forest" (that is, other factors that can cause imbalance).

 

[blaidd]

I don't have exact dates from my games, but it does form tend to form very early. Although in at least 2 of my games the AI attacked Austria and annexed Saxony with a conquest war goal, rather than taking it from their sphere.

 

[El Jojo]

Well, at the risk of sounding like the contrarian, I'm surprised by this thread. In fact at some point I almost started a thread saying the opposite, that NGF never happens and Prussia seems unable to do anything now.
I played 12 games, I'll take out the France and Prussia game because obviously I was interfering too much, so 10 games (including 4 Latin american games where I did not influence Europe until the 1870s-1880s).
I saw "one", yup one NGF forming and it was in 1860s, because I had kicked Austria to secondary power as Italy. I've seen two late Germany, but I guess it was through "crown from the gutter", because in both cases this "Germany" was just Bavaria + Prussia, then it tried to conquer all the minors it had cores on but failed and so Germany limped to the endgame with all the german minors alive in its middle.

So, it would be necessary to have better data and to understand what causes the AI to either fail or manage too easily to form NGF...

 

[SDSkinner]

The NGF forms early because it helps deal with other nations annexing German minors for failing to repay debts.

So far I haven't seen any overpowerdness- NGF keeps getting beat on by Austria and France. Heck, the once got beaten up so badly that Austria managed to form Greater Germany!

 

[k-59]

I don't see what Austria can do about it. They need to be using their influence on protecting the South German minors not losing battles with Prussia over Hanover and Denmark.

 

[pkderek]

I'm still a noob but I think it all comes down to Saxony. Influence used by Austria on other countries really doesn't matter since they all start ahead for Prussia and Prussia usually stays ahead of Austria in ranking. And Prussia starts with foreign investment on Saxony so they *should* eventually beat out Austria. But that really depends on how invested Austria is in Saxony. If they play their cards right, the only way NGF can form is if they declare war. To this end it will differ from game to game. Did Austria ally with France? Bavaria? Wurttemburg? Baden? Tuscany? Did Prussia ally with GB? Is GB even going to do anything?

I played a game of Prussia and GB did nothing. France and Austria are a tough bunch and it actually was Portuguese :wub: soldiers in the trenches of Vienna and Venice that saved me from a prolonged 10-year war. GB camped in Sardinia forever for God knows why before taking 5 provinces and bailing to I think Canada since they had 90 men in Canada. I guess they blockaded with 5 ships but why they don't split/use that 150 stack in London I will never know.

If GB actually does invade, Austria has no hope. They just get kicked into the dirt more and more until they are nothing.

But then again this is just another perspective at the end of the day.

 

[PBL2000]

Yes, the NGF tends to form early. Half the times I then see it beat up by Austria/France/Russia and drops from great power status.

I don't see why you're upset with Austria about it, though. I don't expect Austria to stop the NGF forming. I expect Austria to try to stop the NGF from forming Germany.

 

[blaidd]

why they don't split/use that 150 stack in London I will never know.

What, move a few of those ships out of the channel? But then people would be screaming the UK AI sucks because it needs to keep those ships at home to defend itself from French invasions.

Besides haven't you heard the UK AI doesn't build ships anymore. And never upgrades the ones it has. Those 50 dreadnoughts, that's just your imagination.