Ok, I'm dumbfounded -- how is the AI walking past these forts?

[durbal]

There's a fort in Halab...and somehow the AI is walking right past it.

I know the fort rules pretty well but I'm totally stumped here.

 

[Blizzrd33]

Halab doesn't provide ZOC protection to the province directly south of Antikya because it doesn't border that province. Because you don't own Antikya (you control it currently, but it was an Ottoman province when the war was declared), the ZOC from Halab doesn't cover Antikya. Hence the Ottomans can walk through Antikya and exit to the south into your territory.

The wiki covers this here: https://eu4.paradoxwikis.com/Zone_of_control

If your fort was in Hamah, it would protect the coastal province to the west of Hamah because it borders this province and you currently own it also.

 

[durbal]

Halab doesn't provide ZOC protection to the province directly south of Antikya because it doesn't border that province. Because you don't own Antikya (you control it currently, but it was an Ottoman province when the war was declared), the ZOC from Halab doesn't cover Antikya. Hence the Ottomans can walk through Antikya and exit to the south into your territory.

The wiki covers this here: https://eu4.paradoxwikis.com/Zone_of_control

If your fort was in Hamah, it would protect the coastal province to the east of Hamah because it borders this province and you currently own it also.

But yet if Halab were an Ottoman province that I captured it would provide ZoC? Normally I'm ok with the fort rules, but if that's the case it's pretty absurd.

 

[szmik]

forts don't extend ZoC to enemy owned provinces, never were, which led to much confusion....

but if you capture enemy fort and provinces around, it provides ZoC there.... at least when AI does it to you

 

[Blizzrd33]

But yet if Halab were an Ottoman province that I captured it would provide ZoC? Normally I'm ok with the fort rules, but if that's the case it's pretty absurd.

forts don't extend ZoC to enemy owned provinces, never were, which led to much confusion....

but if you capture enemy fort and provinces around, it provides ZoC there.... at least when AI does it to you

I recommend you both have a read of the wiki article I linked above.

There is a difference between how captured forts during war work for the human player and how they work for the AI, which is often a point of confusion.

 

[001andstillAlive]

I recommend you both have a read of the wiki article I linked above.

There is a difference between how captured forts during war work for the human player and how they work for the AI, which is often a point of confusion.

As far as I am aware, there is no difference regarding human&AI, where do you have that information from? The article also does not say anything about that either afaik.

 

[Lykus Cerebros]

I recommend you both have a read of the wiki article I linked above.

There is a difference between how captured forts during war work for the human player and how they work for the AI, which is often a point of confusion.

That's quite new information. I remember this video where there was no difference between AI and human players. Not sure if that was changed though.

 

[CelRay]

Fort ZoC does not extend across nation borders for the AI (even if, as in the OPs example, the territory across the border is controlled by the player). It does, however, extend across borders against the player. This is really easy to see if you have any vassals and you play in/around the HRE. An OPM with a fort will prevent YOU from walking anywhere around the fort, while your vassals can march right on by through neutral territory.

 

[durbal]

Fort ZoC does not extend across nation borders for the AI (even if, as in the OPs example, the territory across the border is controlled by the player). It does, however, extend across borders against the player. This is really easy to see if you have any vassals and you play in/around the HRE. An OPM with a fort will prevent YOU from walking anywhere around the fort, while your vassals can march right on by through neutral territory.

Why does that exist? That's ridiculous. The same fort in the same location has different ZoC mechanics for AI and players depending on who originally owned the province? Insane.

 

[grotaclas]

Fort ZoC does not extend across nation borders for the AI (even if, as in the OPs example, the territory across the border is controlled by the player). It does, however, extend across borders against the player. This is really easy to see if you have any vassals and you play in/around the HRE. An OPM with a fort will prevent YOU from walking anywhere around the fort, while your vassals can march right on by through neutral territory.

Can you provide any proof for this claim? Ideal would be a save game in which a stationary AI army is about to make a movement which a player can't do when loading the save as the AI country.
I tried this and the AI just started to siege the OPM fort even though they didn't have enough troops. If they would have been able to walk along the fort, they would be able to siege a mothballed fort which I set as their objective.

 

[Volbound]

I really think ZOC should be improved in this game. Primarily just to reduce the tediousness of having to chase around AI armies. It just isn't very fun to do that. I think it will force more engagements with better ZOC.

 

[CelRay]

Can you provide any proof for this claim? Ideal would be a save game in which a stationary AI army is about to make a movement which a player can't do when loading the save as the AI country.
I tried this and the AI just started to siege the OPM fort even though they didn't have enough troops. If they would have been able to walk along the fort, they would be able to siege a mothballed fort which I set as their objective.

I have nothing immediately at hand, no. Like others, I've been bothered by ZoC rules, and so whenever I saw something wacky, I tried to figure out what I was missing. After many such incidents (including one where a fort across the border blocked my own armies from moving in my own lands), I came up with this hypothesis, and it seems to hold up well in explaining abnormal occurrences.

One place I know I've seen it multiple times is around Holstein. If you are Denmark and are fighting ONLY Bremen (or Dithmarschen, or Lubeck) and somebody further south (say, Brandenburg). The fort in Bremen will prevent you from passing through Holstein even though none of the other minors in that area are involved in the war (ie, they are all neutral). But, Norway and Sweden will have no problem walking by.

Next time I see it, I'll try to save it.

 

[grotaclas]

One place I know I've seen it multiple times is around Holstein. If you are Denmark and are fighting ONLY Bremen (or Dithmarschen, or Lubeck) and somebody further south (say, Brandenburg). The fort in Bremen will prevent you from passing through Holstein even though none of the other minors in that area are involved in the war (ie, they are all neutral). But, Norway and Sweden will have no problem walking by.

I think you are misremembering something. Bremen should not block your movement through Holstein, because it doesn't border any of the relevant provinces:

If a fort in Dithmarschen or Hamburg would block you, depends on the ownership and forts of the surrounding provinces. If you own a path, you can move alongside the enemy forts:

If the provinces are neutral, you can't move through. But in older versions it was possible to move through, if the return province was in the Öresund sea tile. Maybe that's what the AI did. And it was possible to move if the movement order was given while the enemy fort was mothballed or not hostile(in some cases this is still possible). If the fort was mothballed at the start of the war, the AI could have given the movement order immediately and it could have taken Norway and Sweden a long time to arrive there because of the long distances in Scandinavia.

Next time I see it, I'll try to save it.

Please let me know if you see a situation in which the AI moves in a way which the player can't do. So far nobody who claimed that the AI can move differently than the player was able to provide any recent-version-evidence which could not be explained in a different way(there might be some evidence for versions before 1.24 which AFAIK was the last time an AI movement bug was fixed).

 

[Junuxx]

the coastal province to the east of Hamah

*west

 

[szmik]

I recommend you both have a read of the wiki article I linked above.

There is a difference between how captured forts during war work for the human player and how they work for the AI, which is often a point of confusion.

Thus, I pointed out "when AI does it to player" as I'm not entirely sure it works against AI, I think it doesn't, but it may be my bias

 

[Blizzrd33]

*west

Indeed, sorry about that

 

[CelRay]

I think you are misremembering something. Bremen should not block your movement through Holstein, because it doesn't border any of the relevant provinces:
View attachment 834833
If a fort in Dithmarschen or Hamburg would block you, depends on the ownership and forts of the surrounding provinces. If you own a path, you can move alongside the enemy forts:
View attachment 834836

If the provinces are neutral, you can't move through. But in older versions it was possible to move through, if the return province was in the Öresund sea tile. Maybe that's what the AI did. And it was possible to move if the movement order was given while the enemy fort was mothballed or not hostile(in some cases this is still possible). If the fort was mothballed at the start of the war, the AI could have given the movement order immediately and it could have taken Norway and Sweden a long time to arrive there because of the long distances in Scandinavia.


Please let me know if you see a situation in which the AI moves in a way which the player can't do. So far nobody who claimed that the AI can move differently than the player was able to provide any recent-version-evidence which could not be explained in a different way(there might be some evidence for versions before 1.24 which AFAIK was the last time an AI movement bug was fixed).

Sorry, I meant Hamburg, not Bremen. The situation I'm describing is when ONLY the OPM is hostile, the remaining provinces around there are owned by Neutral AI. I know I can't move through, but I have seen allied AI who do move through. I really don't think it was due to movement orders being given prior to the fort exerting ZoC either.

As I said, I'll keep an eye out for it.

 

[st360]

God this is so stupid