Oirat Horde

[AnonHobo]

You dont. Hordes are essentially on the same level as the New World and Africans on playability now. Reform fucks you over because you lose horde government and horde ideas get replaced with generic. Timurids and Manchus are playable only because they can easily reform and they have their own NIs but for that reason are not considered real hordes. In a nutshell, hordes are not really viable anymore for anyone other than masochists whom enjoy trying to make superpowers out of countries that the game decides must die.

Not the game. History.

 

[Novacat]

Not the game. History.

History would disagree with you on the case of the Timurids and Manchus.

 

[Mr. Methyl]

that's actually why i preferred the oriat, getting expansion as my first idea i colonized siberia and met russia above the Caspian sea, therefor preventing their ability to reach critical mass.

moreover, colonizing allowed my to reach critical mass without a risky war with ming by colonizing Asia, philipines etc.. and a bit of north america.
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=192819350
actually colonizing is a bit OP for asian countries, while europeans can colonize they dont receive optimum revenues from the provinces they take due to overseas penalties.
asian countries can colonize provinces of the same continent receiving full benefits.

Yep, grab expansion early as any Asian powerhouse and if you can pull off both Westernization and grab all of the East Indies, you will be surprised how quickly you're #1 score in all categories due to the lack of distant overseas. You can even move your capital to Ceylon and eat 25% of the world's trade instantly, for fun. My main goal was to get a coastal province as quickly as possible.

I've done this with Oirat, Timurids, Nepal (not a horde but an awesome Asian minor) and am now trying with Uzbek 'cause my buddy is Uzbek.

 

[prinnydood]

Yes.

Even if you pass the decision to form Qing/Mughals before westernizing?

 

[Novacat]

Even if you pass the decision to form Qing/Mughals before westernizing?

Yes. The game only cares about what tag you start with, and so long as its a Steppe Horde the game does not care.

I've done this with Oirat, Timurids, Nepal (not a horde but an awesome Asian minor) and am now trying with Uzbek 'cause my buddy is Uzbek.

Its a lot harder now since Nepal and the Steppe Hordes had the crap nerfed out of them.

 

[timujin]

Taking east Siberia is not going to stop Russia from reaching critical mass... all of the most 'valuable' provinces are in Muscovy/Novogorod territory, those provinces alone let Russia field 60K troops easy, conquer a few of the western hordes like Golden Horde and Kazan and suddenly they can easily field 100-150K troops.

Also, Timurids is in a really good position to cut the Russians off. All you need to do is conquer Uzbek, than colonise that single uninhabited province. However, that gives you a border with Russia and generally Russia takes very strong exception to having its frontier taken away from it.

i agree about what you say on the timurids i think they are going to be the next horde faction i play.
But regarding stoping russia you are wrong,
1) they can field about same amount of troops i can, before reforming i had 100k manpower and could support 120+ units
2) but i have 20% less atrition as a horde, combined with scorched earth i see no way they can keep 30 unit doom stacks alive on my territory
3) i have no other viable enemies, they have plenty therefor they cannot maintain prolonged war
4) in order to reform i went administrative till the end, so i can field ridiculous amount of mercenaries,
that was a precaution i did earlier in case i face 3 wars same time with moscow timur and ming when they still were a threat

anyway this war never happened so i guess we will never know
they did brought 2 30K stacks to my border once, but left due to 3% attrition while still on their own territory

 

[Novacat]

1) they can field about same amount of troops i can, before reforming i had 100k manpower and could support 120+ units

Reforming will reduce your land force limits and manpower by about 33%. So expect 66K Manpower and 80 forcelimits.

2) but i have 20% less atrition as a horde, combined with scorched earth i see no way they can keep 30 unit doom stacks alive on my territory

You lose horde ideas on reforming. Enjoy your generic ideas. On top of this, +125% Manpower lets Russia simply laugh at attrition.

3) i have no other viable enemies, they have plenty therefor they cannot maintain prolonged war

It depends. If your India, you have to worry about every single Colonial power going after you due to missions, infact in my Timurids game where I conquered India, I had been DOWed by both Portugal and England. Even European powers get missions in China occasionally, though they are far less likely to attempt them. Of course, there is Ming as well.

My 1.2 game, I was a Westernized Timurids whom owned and controlled all of Samarkand, Yumen, Kashmir, and Beijing trade nodes, with hundreds of thousands of troops, Horde bonuses, and Western tech. The Russians still DOWed me. Given I crushed them but they were able to field a frightening number of troops despite not having central and western siberia. In 1.3 this kind of game would be quite deadly for me, considering that my Westernized Timurids would not be able to field as many troops, wont have the defensive combat bonus in plains/desert, and will be behind in technology because westernization takes longer and is more pricey, well, unless I go mughals but I much prefer the Timurids flag/color to Mughals.

 

[Mr. Methyl]

Reforming will reduce your land force limits and manpower by about 33%. So expect 66K Manpower and 80 forcelimits.



You lose horde ideas on reforming. Enjoy your generic ideas. On top of this, +125% Manpower lets Russia simply laugh at attrition.



It depends. If your India, you have to worry about every single Colonial power going after you due to missions, infact in my Timurids game where I conquered India, I had been DOWed by both Portugal and England. Even European powers get missions in China occasionally, though they are far less likely to attempt them. Of course, there is Ming as well.

My 1.2 game, I was a Westernized Timurids whom owned and controlled all of Samarkand, Yumen, Kashmir, and Beijing trade nodes, with hundreds of thousands of troops, Horde bonuses, and Western tech. The Russians still DOWed me. Given I crushed them but they were able to field a frightening number of troops despite not having central and western siberia. In 1.3 this kind of game would be quite deadly for me, considering that my Westernized Timurids would not be able to field as many troops, wont have the defensive combat bonus in plains/desert, and will be behind in technology because westernization takes longer and is more pricey, well, unless I go mughals but I much prefer the Timurids flag/color to Mughals.

I feel ya, I agree they have been nerfed, but I have to say it ain't impossible. I only play SP Ironman, no MP at all, but I really feel like mostly ignoring Russia - except to contain them when convenient with a half dozen allies - has been good for me. After the nerf, taking them on is even tougher. I feel like you're pretty convinced of your opinion, but I heartily find Asian minors more fun since 1.3.

For the Europeans, I find every time that if I keep a few shitty rump states in India for them to take, they take them like clockwork instead of going after the tougher opponents. Portugal gets it first, and I have never had them attack me, just usually Gujarat or Mewar or whomever, usually not even Vijaya, since they might take more effort. I have been lucky too, and as a player you know the years when they get cores, so keep heavy allies during those times. It has worked for me, of course as always YMMV.

 

[FrostPegasus]

timurids, release persia vassal, assault delhi ruthlessly, form mughals, recover cores in qara qoyunlu, conquer world

I wonder the best way to westernize. sometimes the europeans don't make it to india at all really.

I did this a while ago. European nations tried to invade me several times after about 1750. Got declared war on by France and Great Britain several times, but aside from occupy Ceylon (because I had no troops there) they never really tried an invasion of India proper.

Persia, Afghanistan, Baluchistan and Kazakh are my vassals. Ended the game with a treasury of about 25k. Could have conquered MUCH more but decided to let the world develop on its own.

Got three achievements for that game: Fully Westernize as a Horde, play until 1821 and 7 Navy Morale.

 

[unmerged(815621)]

History would disagree with you on the case of the Timurids and Manchus.

If you follow the chain, the poster never really implied otherwise. The original post implied that hordes were not viable except Timurids and Manchu and that this should not be the case.

The reply was that history dictated that at this time the hordes should not be viable, presumably accepting the original posters exception of Timurids and Manchus.

 

[vanzlmalc]

As Oirat Horde one should deal with Muscovy early on when supply limits are low and kill them with attrition. Wathing 20k russian soldiers die to attrition while they siege your scorched 7 supply province is quite fun

 

[Hinforta]

Just recently ended my campaign as westernized Crimea and boy was it fun.
If you're going to play western Hordes (unless you're Crimea of course), you have to conquer Crimea as fast as possible using any means. For example you may be in war with Ottomans and if you're lucky enough, you won't have to fight them and one day get a peace treaty. After that attack Crimea and annex as many provinces as possible. The purpose of this is to get access to Kaffa, which for very long time usually belongs to Genoa in order to westernize. Without westernization you're doomed. Also try not to spend your monarch points unless you've reached your limit.

 

[Novacat]

If you follow the chain, the poster never really implied otherwise. The original post implied that hordes were not viable except Timurids and Manchu and that this should not be the case.

Except Timurids and Manchus are far weaker than they were historically.

If you're going to play western Hordes (unless you're Crimea of course), you have to conquer Crimea as fast as possible using any means. For example you may be in war with Ottomans and if you're lucky enough, you won't have to fight them and one day get a peace treaty. After that attack Crimea and annex as many provinces as possible. The purpose of this is to get access to Kaffa, which for very long time usually belongs to Genoa in order to westernize. Without westernization you're doomed. Also try not to spend your monarch points unless you've reached your limit.

This is overkill. All you need is Azov and a province adjacent to Azov, as the Genovese tend to have a core there as well.

 

[Umbrahim]

If you conquer a province with a western core you can train western troops there.

 

[oblio-]

If you conquer a province with a western core you can train western troops there.

This topic is 1 year old. And in 1.8 you cannot recruit those units anymore...