Oil and Logistics Mega-thread: Post all discussion here

[jcromano]

I just watched the "Beginner Tutorial -- Construction" on Steam. At the 1:55 mark of that video, the narrator says, "Oil refineries will produce oil and rubber in that state..."

Is that accurate? Shouldn't refineries CONSUME oil rather than PRODUCE it?

Can a country without any oil deposits anywhere nearby really increase its oil production by building refineries? Shouldn't it need to build wells or off-shore platforms, and even then only in areas where oil can be found?

I apologize if this question has been asked before and I missed it. Sixty pages of thread was too much for me to pick through.

Jim

 

[Evan05]

I just watched the "Beginner Tutorial -- Construction" on Steam. At the 1:55 mark of that video, the narrator says, "Oil refineries will produce oil and rubber in that state..."

Is that accurate? Shouldn't refineries CONSUME oil rather than PRODUCE it?

Can a country without any oil deposits anywhere nearby really increase its oil production by building refineries? Shouldn't it need to build wells or off-shore platforms, and even then only in areas where oil can be found?

I apologize if this question has been asked before and I missed it. Sixty pages of thread was too much for me to pick through.

Jim

It's called synthetic oil and rubber.

The US during the war built up an absurd amount of synthetic rubber-producing plants. On the other hand countries like Germany did rely on some extent for synthetic oil, though not even comparatively as greatly as the US did on rubber.

 

[jcromano]

It's called synthetic oil and rubber.

The US during the war built up an absurd amount of synthetic rubber-producing plants. On the other hand countries like Germany did rely on some extent for synthetic oil, though not even comparatively as greatly as the US did on rubber.

My question is really about oil production, so let's leave the rubber part out of it, if we can.

You're saying that refineries increase a country's oil output because they can produce synthetic oil out of "not-oil"? What fraction of Germany's oil was synthetic oil created from not-oil? What fraction of their refineries were dedicated to that project? Is Germany the best example?

 

[jcromano]

Ah. It was explained to me in another thread that the refineries create synthetic oil from coal. That makes some sense, I guess.

Still, I wonder whether a country without access to coal or oil could increase its oil production by building refineries. I guess I'll find out in a week.

Thanks for you answer, Evan.

 

[Silas1775]

Ah. It was explained to me in another thread that the refineries create synthetic oil from coal. That makes some sense, I guess.

Still, I wonder whether a country without access to coal or oil could increase its oil production by building refineries. I guess I'll find out in a week.

Thanks for you answer, Evan.

Firstly, of course you don't need oil to construct synthetic oil refineries. That's the idea. Secondly, can you name me three countries that aren't something silly like island micro nations that totally lack any coal deposits?

 

[wright1331]

My question is really about oil production, so let's leave the rubber part out of it, if we can.

You're saying that refineries increase a country's oil output because they can produce synthetic oil out of "not-oil"? What fraction of Germany's oil was synthetic oil created from not-oil? What fraction of their refineries were dedicated to that project? Is Germany the best example?

Germany is by far the best example.

The numbers were around 7-9 Million Barrels of synthetic per year, while the domestic production (not sure if this is including conquered territory or not) was 3.8 Million barrels/year.
With 25 plants producing synthetic oil.
Imports accounted for about 2/3 of Germany's Oil

 

[mursolini]

While German synthetic oil is the most obvious example, there were others, Japan did build some synthetic oil capacity as well.

It is possible to produce "fuel products" from corn, coal, wood and plenty of other stuff, which is not economical in peace time, compared to oil imports, but in war, you don`t get a choice, and such production is naturally small-scale.

 

[anam]

I'm sorry if this has been brought up already (well it has ofc, but i'll add my thoughts to it )
I have been thinking about this issue for a time, mainly because on one side some of it didn't bother me much, while some did bother me. And it was a post by @Axe99 in his modding navy thread that put me on the right track. And thats Upkeep.
Upkeep is a game mechanism designed to make you having to balance resources. Like with spaceships in Stellaris.
Now some games has upkeep, and some doesn't. But i have rarely seen any game using upkeep on some units but not others.(Cant come up with any game that does it this way infact)
In HOI4 you have upkeep on all army units. What you call it is not a problem , it's the upkeep mechanism, and this is why i don't have a problem as much with tanks etc not using fuel. You are paying upkeep on them through eqiupment/replacements. So it's not free use so to speak. In a gamemechanism way that is.

But on Navy and Air you are not paying any upkeep as a gamemechanism and that rubs me the wrong way. And although i can see why PDS want's to make the supply system work a lot easier than in HOI3. It still doesn't make any sense as to why you are not paying upkeep, when that gamemechanism is already in the game.
So forget about it beeing called fuel or Hydrogen or Flobbergasters. You should still need to pay it.

Well , that was just my thoughts on this issue And i think HOI4 is gonna be great anyway, and gonna be playing the hell out of it

 

[Kaszub]

And although i can see why PDS want's to make the supply system work a lot easier than in HOI3.

This has nothing to do with lacking fuel, or just simple upkeep in some sort of way. If fuel was in the game, it would be distributed to units the same way like other equipment, so it's not like it will break the game, or make the same problem as supply system did in HoI III.

 

[anam]

This has nothing to do with lacking fuel, or just simple upkeep in some sort of way. If fuel was in the game, it would be distributed to units the same way like other equipment, so it's not like it will break the game, or make the same problem as supply system did in HoI III.

As i have understood it, equipment just get "magically" transported to the unit needed it. It doesn't actually go into the transportnetwork like in HOI3. And there you are correct, it' would't make the same problem as in HOI3.
But if you call Equipment energycredits instead and units spaceships, you have the same system as in Stellaris which is an upkeep system where you pay 1 energycredit for spacehips, 1.5 credit for bigger ones etc(i don't think you have Stellaris so i explain a bit more, but it's used in a lot of other games too).

Now this is the exact same thing as in HOI4 ,but here it's called equipment instead. So that is an upkeep system where you pay for units in a commodity. You pay 1 equipment for a 6battalion division , 1.5 equipment for 9 battalion div etc etc. (Just pulling numbers from the air here). Beeing out of supply just means that when you go over the limit for the state, you wont get as much equipment when the units need it, and some maluses for combat etc.
Call it Fuel instead , it's still the same mechanism which is an upkeep mechanism in gamedevelopment terms
But this isn't used for Air and Navy which is my point.
Edit: And i think you should at least pay upkeep.

 

[Scout37]

As i have understood it, equipment just get "magically" transported to the unit needed it.

Nope, it's not "magically" transported just because you don't need to build the physical convoy itself. It still uses routes via adjacent provinces to get to where it needs to go. Hence why encirclements can utterly wipe out dozens of divisions by overrunning them when they're out of supply, and why invasions will fail if you can't capture a port to secure a supply route or a city to have some local supply produced for you.

Here http://www.hoi4wiki.com/Logistics#Incoming_supply

So the rates your units receive supplies is determined by the lowest level of infrastructure along the best path from your units to the capital, since that's where the bottleneck occurs.

 

[anam]

Nope, it's not "magically" transported just because you don't need to build the physical convoy itself. It still uses routes via adjacent provinces to get to where it needs to go. Hence why encirclements can utterly wipe out dozens of divisions by overrunning them when they're out of supply, and why invasions will fail if you can't capture a port to secure a supply route or a city to have some local supply produced for you.

Here http://www.hoi4wiki.com/Logistics#Incoming_supply

So the rates your units receive supplies is determined by the lowest level of infrastructure along the best path from your units to the capital, since that's where the bottleneck occurs.

Yeah i was wrong. Doesn't in fact much change most of what i was trying saying. Army units are paying the upkeep, air and navy are not. And as shown there is no good reason for them to not do it.

 

[Cardus]

Nope, it's not "magically" transported just because you don't need to build the physical convoy itself. It still uses routes via adjacent provinces to get to where it needs to go. Hence why encirclements can utterly wipe out dozens of divisions by overrunning them when they're out of supply, and why invasions will fail if you can't capture a port to secure a supply route or a city to have some local supply produced for you.

Here http://www.hoi4wiki.com/Logistics#Incoming_supply

So the rates your units receive supplies is determined by the lowest level of infrastructure along the best path from your units to the capital, since that's where the bottleneck occurs.

They are magically transported as they do not exist. Let's say that your 8th Army is in Egypt and that the Italians are blocking the straight of Sicily and the Horn of Africa. Your army is still in supply and it will be forever.

 

[Pashahlis]

Hey guys, i havent followed HOI development for a few months already and would like to ask if Oil is still only needed to produce tanks and thats it. And btw, cant you actually build tanks without oil, you just get a penalty to how fast they get produced?

 

[Axe99]

Hey guys, i havent followed HOI development for a few months already and would like to ask if Oil is still only needed to produce tanks and thats it. And btw, cant you actually build tanks without oil, you just get a penalty to how fast they get produced?

Oil is one of the inputs into equipment that needs it (so tanks, aircraft, ships, probably a few other things), but as you say, if you don't have oil it's just a production penalty, rather than a hard block on production. At least, as far as we know.

 

[Kaszub]

Any thoughts after watching the streams? I'm curious what you guys think.

 

[Axe99]

I want to wait until I can digest it all at my own pace (and I'm not really a streaming person anyway, and none of streamers are likely to have had the game long enough to really know what they're doing, DDRJake last night aside). Would be interested in others' thoughts though .

 

[Mr.Arrow]

The lack of stockpile for oil is disappointing.Japan can spam armour and planes in this game without any worries,so this make oil useless.

The game is truly dumbed down *sigh*

 

[Grand Pope Papa]

Yup Britain can have and does have very often 30000 planes. No feul required.
For Germany, fuel was of the BIGGEST BIGGEST THE BIGGEST concern. I mean this is ww2 we have here and you dont even need fuel. Just take the hit to production efficency and drive/fly/sail on lol.

 

[Axe99]

I still haven't had enough time with the game to really get a feel for the logistics system. It does feel a bit funny just being able to have everything operating all the time (playing as Japan, why not have the entire combined fleet swamping the Chinese coast - it's free of charge, after all - and every available plane in the air), but with aircraft and motorised equipment, there have been some instances where the rate of combat use combined with the need for oil to get decent efficiency was probably a reasonable enough 'flag' of the need, even if the ratios of the actual requirement needed might have been out.

Of course, the need for oil to move is far, faaaarrrr to low (at least in what I've played so far), and while your aircraft might use oil when in combat, but being on constant patrol with no combat and the losses are far, far to low to be a decent proxy. Still working on modding naval OOBs, so haven't looked at modding fuel use yet, not least as it's something best tried when a better understanding of the game and modding the game has been developed.

The biggest issue I've come up against, though, is more the way the supply limit is calculated. I've had units in a coastal province with a port struggling for supply because the game has drawn the supply chain calculation through another port and over half of China. I've also had fairly unintuitive 'one province' supply issues that suddenly resolve when you take 2-3 more provinces (in my first Australian game, I was in terrible supply, and then one more province was taken, and I had more than you can poke a stick at - and it wasn't a port or anything like that - it was just odd - need more time to work out what's happening here). It can feel like the flick between in and out of supply can be fairly arbitrary - I know there's a system (and, in general, it works very well), but I feel that at the very least there's room for some tweaking of the system and of player feedback about the system to get better and more intuitive results.