Oil and Logistics Mega-thread: Post all discussion here

[Giob]

Wrong! They can now just try to. But if I remember correctly, penalty is huge and if Japan will actually use tanks in operations they will be unable to reinforce them.

We already saw how effective divisions without supply are. If you name it as "continue to war", I will name it as "Retreat without any chances";

This is grand strategy level of realism - they will not be able to fight, no matter what! But because of oil. Do you care as a Field Marshal why your tank unable to fight? Because it has no oil or it just damaged enough so you need same amount of oil to repair it? No. You just drew a plan and sent some subordinates to execute it. It is GRAND STRATEGY, not TANKMAN SIMULATOR.

Deal with it. Result is the same. But it has faaaar more accessibility than HOI3 had.

Yes, this system has so much accessibility that every single mistake and problem you can think of can access it! You can be trading oil with dozens of nations and immediately lose your oil throughput as soon as you enter the war despite the fact that nations historically stockpiled resources; you can have a country with a huge tank force destroying another with a smaller one and still have the second one spend more oil than the first since only replacing tanks consumes fuel, not actually maintaining them. You can have ships happily sailing the high seas despite having been embargoed by every nation on the globe.

Do you care as a Field Marshal why your tank unable to fight? Because it has no oil or it just damaged enough so you need same amount of oil to repair it? No. You just drew a plan and sent some subordinates to execute it. It is GRAND STRATEGY, not TANKMAN SIMULATOR.

And for the love of Cthulhu, YES I DO care why my tanks are unable to fight because how can you fix the problem if you don't know the cause? And if I wanted to send orders to a subordinate and watch stuff unfold I would play Dwarf Fortress. 'GRAND STRATEGY' means that you get to control every aspect of your country, not just throw around some high level decisions and watch others act.

 

[Kaszub]

Maybe PDX team is hidden pacifist and they don't want you to start the war as the Axis. Why would I like to declare war to get oil and be able to produce tanks, if I can simply trade with the US and produce as many tanks as I want! Everybody is happy! Hitler has his panzers and the US has its money. Brilliant!

 

[defendurname]

Just popping in and adding my thoughts. It seems odd that the oil and stockpile system they designed in HOI3 would be discarded for something so much more unrealistic. It would have made more sense to have both initial resource cost as well as resource maintenance along with stockpiles. For example, ships would require steel and oil and equipment to build, but would also require oil as maintenance. They could require steel and equipment for repairs and every resource could, therefore, be stockpiled. If the game designers are worried about some "gamey" behaviour they could just add a hardcap on amount stored based on a country's size or industrial capacity or both, add tech, laws or other things to increase or decrease the size by % values, and even allow the construction of warehouses or silos to stockpile even more if needed.

This system, admittedly from someone who has barely touched HOI3, was something I thought up of over the course of a day and seems to make sense: has something like this been brought up and/or discussed before and rejected? If so, why was it rejected? It seems rather elegant and requiring minimal work, though balancing may take more time.

 

[Cpt Crash]

I agree. I did post a suggestion that troops should need to stockpile equipment in order to build the planning bonus which I think would be much more realistic and would achieve some of what you've mentioned (for example higher equipment usage would tie up more industry).

Industrial power is already a major factor. How well an operation plays out is completely dependant on the stockpiles of equipment and the supply system to get those items to the using units. When combat begins, there will be a huge increase in demands for stockpiled equipment-(BTW, equipment should also be viewed as components of the equipment and ammo as well as compete items). If either the force involved is not at a proper strength or it dwindles faster than the opposition due to a lack of "supplies", then that force, regardless of how well the plan is drawn, will likely fail.

 

[Cardus]

Just popping in and adding my thoughts. It seems odd that the oil and stockpile system they designed in HOI3 would be discarded for something so much more unrealistic. It would have made more sense to have both initial resource cost as well as resource maintenance along with stockpiles. For example, ships would require steel and oil and equipment to build, but would also require oil as maintenance. They could require steel and equipment for repairs and every resource could, therefore, be stockpiled. If the game designers are worried about some "gamey" behaviour they could just add a hardcap on amount stored based on a country's size or industrial capacity or both, add tech, laws or other things to increase or decrease the size by % values, and even allow the construction of warehouses or silos to stockpile even more if needed.

This system, admittedly from someone who has barely touched HOI3, was something I thought up of over the course of a day and seems to make sense: has something like this been brought up and/or discussed before and rejected? If so, why was it rejected? It seems rather elegant and requiring minimal work, though balancing may take more time.

Can you tell how much realistic is the following:
1) supplies don't exist
2) supplies are abstracted therefore they grow as grass
(including fuel and ammunition)

 

[Marfach]

This system, admittedly from someone who has barely touched HOI3, was something I thought up of over the course of a day and seems to make sense: has something like this been brought up and/or discussed before and rejected? If so, why was it rejected? It seems rather elegant and requiring minimal work, though balancing may take more time.

The idea of buildable stockpiles or linking stockpile space to factory numbers has been brought up in this thread and others by several people.
No explanation has been given as to why they didn't go with a system like that, when given several years of development they must surely have thought of it, and so this, like so many others problems in HoI4 will be left to the modders to fix.

 

[Denkt]

What you call problems are not what I call problems. Yes as you said the developers have gone through many system and liked the one they are currently using the most.

 

[Kaszub]

What you call problems are not what I call problems. Yes as you said the developers have gone through many system and liked the one they are currently using the most.

Are they really? 56 pages of concerns and no devs response. If they are so opened for the community, why they don't want to answer why they chose this, instead of more realistic, less arcade and still being simple to implement system?

- Some random guy: "Can I declare war Soviet Union as Germany in 1939?"
- The devs: "I believe so."
-Some random guy: "Can I build tanks?"
-The devs: "Yes, you can."
But if the question is about something weird, or error like wrong leaders, most of the times, they keep silent. I don't get it.

I see HoI IV has a big potential, but the introduction of fusion cells for vehicles, planes and ships really keeps me from buying this game. If I hear anything about this matter from the devs, I will probably change my mind, but untill this moment, I'm holding off.

 

[tommylotto]

What you call problems are not what I call problems. Yes as you said the developers have gone through many system and liked the one they are currently using the most.

Uh, No. It is obvious that they wanted to go another direction. Early DD showed each unit with separate fuel usage. For whatever reason, they were unable to fulfill their initial vision.

But if the question is about something weird, or error like wrong leaders, most of the times, they keep silent. I don't get it.

They have to keep quiet. There is no good answer and it might involve future plans for an expansion that fixes this mess.

 

[Kaszub]

Uh, No. It is obvious that they wanted to go another direction. Early DD showed each unit with separate fuel usage. For whatever reason, they were unable to fulfill their initial vision.


They have to keep quiet. There is no good answer and it might involve future plans for an expansion that fixes this mess.

Well, I'm not really waiting for them to say: "Yes, we will make an expansion and you will be satisfied", but at least something enigmatic, that they thinking about it because the current system isn't bad, but could be better and we have plans for it, but due to lack of time, we have what we have. For me it is very important because then I can treat HoI IV as a good investment.

 

[Cardus]

Uh, No. It is obvious that they wanted to go another direction. Early DD showed each unit with separate fuel usage. For whatever reason, they were unable to fulfill their initial vision.

My initial guess is that the reason of abstracted supplies, planes, paradrops is due to engine's issues however I still don't have any proof/evidence that I am right or wrong.

 

[Marfach]

Well, I'm not really waiting for them to say: "Yes, we will make an expansion and you will be satisfied", but at least something enigmatic, that they thinking about it because the current system isn't bad, but could be better and we have plans for it, but due to lack of time, we have what we have. For me it is very important because then I can treat HoI IV as a good investment.

I think most of us would like to hear 'Yes we are considering a DLC that reworks the supply and logistics system' or 'No, we will not be making any DLC with a significant Logistics Overhaul' Because this lets those who would like to mod these features into the game know if they are wasting their time.
Being silent on the DLC issue might make business sense, in which case I can't really fault them for it, but people have asked things like "Can the output of a factory be used as the input for another factory" and "Is it possible to create variable attrition rates for different types of equipment" and "Is it possible to give ships equipment requirements that can then suffer attrition" and we have gotten no answers to these questions.
I would encourage anyone who wants this game but is unhappy with the fuel and logistics problem to wait until a somewhat functioning fuel mod has been created before buying the game. The developers have promised mod support, and they have given us some great mod tools as demonstrated in the stream, but we need information on the game and Engines capabilities more than we need Error DAWG.
With so much anticipation around this game and such an experienced veteren modding community from HoI3 I am amazed at the lack of information on such a divisive issue.

 

[Axe99]

I think most of us would like to hear 'Yes we are considering a DLC that reworks the supply and logistics system' or 'No, we will not be making any DLC with a significant Logistics Overhaul' Because this lets those who would like to mod these features into the game know if they are wasting their time.

This is the big one for me - Modding in fuel is likely to both be complicated and time consuming for a team of people. I'm not worried at this stage (we can hardly start modding until we've played the game a bit in any event), and I'm hoping we'll get a dev diary like Stellaris did this week outlining plans for the future (in my view, a week of playing the base game is nowhere near enough experience, even if sleep and eating minimised, to start modding with). If we do, we should know whether logistics is in the mix, or the devs have decided to sacrifice complexity in logistics for more detail elsewhere (a valid and reasonable decision from a game design perspective, although one I personally would have been unlikely to make) and can then mod or wait patiently as appropriate .

 

[Gamer_1745]

Given a great deal of 'supply' is food then I imagine a lot of it does grow like grass.

Food is not really model in HoI. That is why supply is much higher in movement & combat in HoI 3.

Food is really only shown in freeing up manpower from the farms.

 

[Gamer_1745]

Well, only those who have oil on their territory. Nations not having fuel are gonna be boned as soon as they are at war with their oil giver. No matter if their usage of imported oil was used 100% in the history of that particular playthrough because every precious resource you dont instantly use gets thrown away. And that is bs. Simply put pdx coulndt come up with a decent stockpilealleviating idea so they try to sell this halfarsed not wellthoughtout all or nothing approach as the holy messias to solve all problems. That just feels lazy to me.

While I agree with most all that you say I don't fully on this 'boned as soon as they are at war with their oil giver'. If you are thinking of a long war Yes, but from what has been shown in the WWW's something shorter than a year it is not true. You could heavily focus on things like aircraft production before the war starts and transfer to infantry equipment production, which has been shown not to need oil, to fill out the conscript units raised after the war starts.

 

[Gamer_1745]

Here https://books.google.it/books?id=kYZvCwAAQBAJ&printsec=frontcover&hl=it#v=onepage&q&f=false on table 3 you see that
1) Food was not taken from all places but delivered by the USA
2) Food was a minority (38%)of total supply

My understanding is the primary limitation to the number of divisions the U.S. deployed overseas was the ability to supply those division from the U.S. This was a shipping limitation not a manpower or equipment production limitation.

 

[Gamer_1745]

I think most of us would like to hear 'Yes we are considering a DLC that reworks the supply and logistics system' or 'No, we will not be making any DLC with a significant Logistics Overhaul'

My thoughts on this is that they will make a DLC if they think the demand is big enough. They do listen to their customers. What I think they don't know at this point is it a few hardcore vocal wargamers that want fuel & supplies in the game or more than half of the customer base of HOI IV? If most players get the game & Play It and go 'Whatever' and keep playing then they wouldn't likely make a DLC, but if there is an upraising (high Revolt Risk) of players going 'Where is the fuel & supplies?' then likely, I would think, they will add it.

 

[Cardus]

My understanding is the primary limitation to the number of divisions the U.S. deployed overseas was the ability to supply those division from the U.S. This was a shipping limitation not a manpower or equipment production limitation.

That's right. In my opinion while in few aspects HOI4 is better than HOI3 (e.g. production) the choice to abstract things (apart from logistic/fuel did you read about teleporting bombs?) makes the game irredeemably broken. That's why I cannot buy the game.

My thoughts on this is that they will make a DLC if they think the demand is big enough. They do listen to their customers. What I think they don't know at this point is it a few hardcore vocal wargamers that want fuel & supplies in the game or more than half of the customer base of HOI IV? If most players get the game & Play It and go 'Whatever' and keep playing then they wouldn't likely make a DLC, but if there is an upraising (high Revolt Risk) of players going 'Where is the fuel & supplies?' then likely, I would think, they will add it.

I hope the same because I want to buy the game but if the issue is with the engine it is not going to happen

 

[Gamer_1745]

did you read about teleporting bombs?)

I can't talk about mechanics & what I know. Only things shown in DDs & WWWs. And even that I am very careful about.

 

[Cardus]

I can't talk about mechanics & what I know. Only things shown in DDs & WWWs. And even that I am very careful about.

In fact my question was about what you have read. Anyway the game is going to be public in few days so, I guess, you will be able to talk freely about it.