Oil and Logistics Mega-thread: Post all discussion here

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Secret Master

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The topic of oil in HOI4 is very popular, and it turns out we have far too many open threads on the subject. Rather than have twenty threads on the topic, put all your discussion here or in the DD thread.

All other oil threads will be closed and redirected here.
 

Atlantians

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I am trying to think of an oil-related pun in reference to all the oil-threads getting mixed together.

Unfortunately, everything I think of is either crude or unrefined.

:cool:
 
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ozmono2005

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I am trying to think of an oil-related pun in reference to all the oil-threads getting mixed together.

Unfortunately, everything I think of is either crude or unrefined.

:cool:
They really should have a funny button next to the helpful agree and disagree because I can't really agree with you, considering it's funny, not in good conscience anyway :)
 
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Rimnir

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Truly, in all seriousness, we all need to try it before we judge it, beta keys/responses (should) go out tomorrow, I assume some players of this wonderful community we have here will post their opinions on all the new systems and mechanics in Hearts of Iron 4. We will wait and we will see.
 
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ozmono2005

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Truly, in all seriousness, we all need to try it before we judge it, beta keys/responses (should) go out tomorrow, I assume some players of this wonderful community we have here will post their opinions on all the new systems and mechanics in Hearts of Iron 4. We will wait and we will see.
I tend to think that fuel stockpiles being taken out and that the abstraction of usage won't be nearly as bad as it sounds on paper. The game sounds awesome in so many regards and I think it will be fun. But so long as criticism is respectful I don't think there is anything wrong with voicing it. That's what we do pre-release on these forums and they are richer for it. It's a very rare occasion indeed when someone says you shouldn't make positive criticisms until you try it. Anyway long story short I agree with the sentiment but in a pre-release forum there isn't much else to do then discuss the game going on the details we have been given for exactly that purpose.
 
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I just hope that with the way logistics are going to work out in HOI4, our experience will not feel gamey and filled with exploits.

Realistically, Germany could not have produced a very large navy and powered her with oil. Now, it appears you will pay that oil beforehand when you want to begin to build a ship, thereby securing an entire existence with enough fuel to operate on its own for years. Which is not very realistic and might lead to exploits by smaller navies. Still, I rather play the game to have a definite opinion.
 
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Atlantians

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KiwiNoob said this in another thread:

KiwiNoob said:
...the current mechanic means that if all your tanks and planes get destroyed then your fuel needs skyrocket. While the winner who has lots of tanks and planes remaining requires very little fuel. It should be that the winner needs lots of oil to continue using their tanks/planes while the loser needs metal to rebuild their tanks. Under this mechanic the loser now needs the metal and the oil while the winner needs neither

I think this is a very good point that needs some consideration.
 
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KiwiNoob

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I like new supply system.

We're not talking about supply. This is about including oil in the cost to produce the unit.



I think the crux of the problem is that there is a massive difference between production resources (like metal) and consumable resources (like oil). The new production line system looks awesome and I love the way production resources work, it prevents ridiculous stockpiles and places more emphasis on having a good supply of resources while not being too harsh to countries without ample supply. 10/10.

I can appreciate that it would be ideal and simple to be able to use the same system for consumable resources but after the last few days of discussion it's definitely looking like it will not be a very good fit in its current form.

People should be able to produce whatever they want without oil but require oil to use it. This is both more immersive and realistic.

I don't see any reason that oil cannot use the current supply mechanic but it's availability and use should be tracked rather than included in the production cost
 
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Atlantians

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I can appreciate that it would be ideal and simple to be able to use the same system for consumable resources but after the last few days of discussion it's definitely looking like it will not be a very good fit in its current form.

People should be able to produce whatever they want without oil but require oil to use it. This is both more immersive and realistic.

I don't see any reason that oil cannot use the current supply mechanic but it's availability and use should be tracked rather than included in the production cost

Don't forget that equipment requires oil and equipment gets consumed.

Equipment represents repairs, maintenance, and refueling as well as replacement stuff.
 
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KiwiNoob

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As a side note - if you put in a form of availability and tracking system for oil it would be a great boon to modders as they could use it for other consumable resources like ammo/food ;)
 
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I read the title as "Oil an [oil related] logistics" :)

Supply and logistics in general is a far less contentious topic.

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that for simplification purposes @Secret Master might have wrote it like that but this is definitely a supply/oil/resources/logistics mega thread that combines the many other threads that the recent 33rd Supply Dev Diary generated among forumites here. :p
 
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jamesd

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With the creation of this mega thread specifically dedicated to Oil, I've decided to copy my post from the supply DD:

The more I think about the lifetime fuel cost of a unit being included in the initial production, the less I like the idea. Take for example two nations constructing tanks. The first nation is engaged in high tempo active operations close to its own borders against an enemy equipped with plentiful high quality AT weapons. The tanks get constructed, loaded onto a train and unloaded a few miles from the front line. Then they drive to the front and engage the enemy, being knocked out within a few days. They only fill their petrol tanks once in their lifetime. The other nation is engaged in low density operations against an enemy who is behind in technology and lacking in good AT weapons. Those tanks could drive thousands of miles before suffering a catastrophic failure requiring the tank be written off. Spare tracks, replacement parts and servicing the engine keep it going without the need to have anything like a total rebuild, and even where rebuilds are necessary the armoured plates and basic frame of the tank are still fine. Those tanks could fill their petrol tanks say 50 times over the course of their lives. These example may represent the extremes, but if its averaged out, the first nation has to expend 25 times as much oil in production than its tanks would actually use while the second is able to drive twice as far as its fuel supplies should allow. Its a deeply flawed theory.

I can understand not wanting to have stockpiles. but I think there is a better way of handling fuel in HOI4 than has been illustrated so far. This would be to limit operations based on the proportion of fuel supplies to units that need fuel. For example lets say that 1 point of Oil allows 10 armoured or motorised battalions or 500 planes or 10 destroyers to operate without restriction. Each day the amount of oil is compared to the units/planes/ships that need it giving a proportion, lets call it 80% for this example.

For ground units it could simply be a matter of reducing the base movement of fuel dependent units where there is a shortage. So instead of moving at say 10kmh, the 80% fuel supply would limit movement to 8kmh.

For aircraft, the limitation could keep planes from flying, so at 80% only 80% of planes at each base could operate that day.

For ships, I'd say that each hour spent in port allows them to spend say 10 hours assigned to a mission, to a maximum of 1000 hours before they have to return to port. With fuel supplies at only 80%, each hour in port would only allow 8 hours on mission, thus keeping them in port longer than would otherwise be the case. It should also be possible to mothball ships so that they can't move but don't count against the fuel requirements.

With a system like this, a nation with fuel shortages would have an incentive to reduce the number of fuel dependent divisions to improve the efficiency of the others, which the Germans did when they converted 2 motorised divisions back to infantry in 42/43. A nation with significant numbers of obsolete aircraft would have an incentive to keep them in reserve so that the operations of its modern aircraft were not impacted, modelling the retirement of older models that all major nations did, whereas the current system will have those old planes keep flying until they're all destroyed. The navy of a nation suffering from fuel shortages would spend more time in port than its opponents, better reflecting the problems besetting the Japanese and Italian navies.
 
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So far this new supply system is the first and only feature I am disappointed about in HoI4. The fuel consumption, I mean.
 
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I wonder if oil is the only oil in the game. I think it would be cool to sabotage your enemies by lend leasing them gasoline engines instead of diesel so their equipment blows up twice as fast. That would be fun

That makes no sense. What are you talking about?

Do you even know what diesel and gasoline is?
 
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ozmono2005

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So far this new supply system is the first and only feature I am disappointed about in HoI4.
I agreed (assuming your talking about fuel related supply) but in truth I didn't like stockpiles being pretty much thrown out either. I would have preferred them fixing it rather than abandoning it. I don't like the lack of money either. But I do find this the hardest to swallow, even though as I said I have a feeling it sounds worse on paper than it is.
 
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Milkman Luke

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It seems like a lot of people have forgotten this is a grand strategy game and not a simulation. As a game design choice, the oil-for-output seems like a really clean idea with good feedback to a player's action, especially compared to the hindsight horrorshow that oil stockpiling seemed to be with HoI3.
 
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I agreed (assuming your talking about fuel related supply) but in truth I didn't like stockpiles being pretty much thrown out either. I don't like the lack of money either. But I do find this the hardest to swallow, even though as I said I have a feeling it sounds worse on paper than it is.

I think stockpiles would make sense if they were limited in size by the size of your active military.
 
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