Oghuz

[arothuris]

Hello fellow CKers. This is the first game I start as a muslim, since I havent played much between 1.04c &1.07, though I got all the dlcs. So if anyone would be so kind in tutoring me a bit in the basics of muslim rulers, it will be much appreciated. I dun like starting too big usually, so I chose Oghuz as I thought they might be interesting. (dun start anything above duke usually, except 1 time I started as the conqueror. Btw, he failed conquering England straight away at game start this time, died in battle. So I probably wont see English culture in the game this time? Its the first time I saw him failed so miserably, in every other game he usually managed his task, though may then defeat by norway afterwards)

I noticed I would get 4 wives, so my 1st question is, do I NEED 4 wives except for roleplaying purposes? Only the 1st wife stats count anyway & I dun need a lot of children just yet. Do I get penalized for not having 4?
Secondly, I noticed that I cant change my court chaplain. So do they just appoint themselves?
And thirdly, I found that I could start wars as soon as I have 50 piety, so is there any point in fabricating claims anymore?

About Oghuz, anyone have any suggestions about how to advance? I found them immensely weak after started the game... 0 tech in all provinces, barely more than 1000 soldiers... did I chose the wrong ruler to start? :blink:

 

[Sian]

if you don't have enough wives you get a penalty in prestige, 1 per month per wife less than what you need (personally i solely marry geniuses for a, believed, raise in chance of getting genius children to become my heir)

counts need 2 wives, dukes need 3 wives and kings/emperors need 4 wives. So if you are a duke with 1 wife only, you get -2 prestige per month

Court chaplain is a post for life (or untill you trade him off so he aren't your direct vassal anymore) after which you can appoint a new one, but you can appoint anyone in the realm (except females) and not only courtiers and bishops as Christians can)

Not much point in fabricating claims, no ... well, if you fabricate several claims, warring for them in a row, that might be worthwhile, but mainly i'd use him for getting friends improving relations either to allies or vassals

Oghuz is probably one of the trickier muslims just as you said ... your behind by quite a bit (given that muslims usually have somewhere around 5/16/16 give or take a few ... i'd suggest someone either in Iberia or North Africa ... Sicily is to close to the pope and if going to the middle east you're probably going to be part of a giant realm (Seljuk or Fatimid), and in any case might feel a lack of good targets ... Bulgar might be a good try as well since they got a couple of good provinces (in the middle of a sea of 0/0/0) which they can lean onto.

As for actually playing muslims ... prune your dynasty tree often ... try not to have any adult males except for yourself and prehaps a couple of sons ... as long as they're of your dynasty you can imprison them for practically free and execute them for 20 Piety not losing anything else. Get your Decadence down early on (Hajj, Ramadan and Tournement) and try to keep it down while using your superior tech land to roll your face across the world ... Your heir is chosen by the game selecting your son with most/strongest holdings.

 

[Isaios]

Having several Genius wives does help with genius children. There's a 15% chance of inheriting it from either parent.

But I'd advice getting as many celibate secondary wives as possible. It prevents excessive breeding. Or if you're using the Designer, opt for as low a Fertility score as possible

Fabricating claims is certainly not useless. It's a very decent secondary method of aquisition.

 

[arothuris]

About heir... what if I keep them all in court (assume I somehow manage the decadence), then who get my titles then?

 

[Isaios]

About heir... what if I keep them all in court (assume I somehow manage the decadence), then who get my titles then?

I think it's first-born then. But I've not tested it extensively enough to tell. Btw, you can keep up to 5 sons at court without penalty by using them as Councillors.

 

[Hackworthy]

Yes, if all your sons are unlanded then the eldest is the heir. The great thing about the Muslim system is that by granting land to be best of your sons instead of the eldest you can ensure the strength of your dynasty in a way similar to Elective Monarchy without the risk.

 

[arothuris]

Just found that I have no penalty holding a mosque, how about a city then? If so, I feel kind of unfair for the christian rulers o

 

[Isaios]

Yes, if all your sons are unlanded then the eldest is the heir. The great thing about the Muslim system is that by granting land to be best of your sons instead of the eldest you can ensure the strength of your dynasty in a way similar to Elective Monarchy without the risk.

It's certainly a boon, but landing sons too soon results in too big a Dynasty, while leaving it too late ends with you dying accidentally and leaving it to the first born.

Just found that I have no penalty holding a mosque, how about a city then? If so, I feel kind of unfair for the christian rulers o

Not only do you not recieve a penalty for holding a Temple (mosque) holding, you gain +0.2 Pety per Temple holding. Which is win and awesome.

You get the normal penalty for City holdings.

 

[dorukdorucu]

Mosques are treated the same way as castles and you have one law for them (iqta i believe) cities however are the same way they are with christians.

 

[DarkPhoenix]

You get the normal penalty for City holdings.

I alway this this "penalty" negligible/nonexistent, as long as the city is in your capital county, and you have your steward raising taxes - you get way more money from this than by giving the fief away, even with the -whatever% penalty in place. Getting a quarter (in most cases, much more, depending on your stewards abilities) of a enormous tax income is always better than 45% of a lowly mayors income.

 

[Isaios]

I alway this this "penalty" negligible/nonexistent, as long as the city is in your capital county, and you have your steward raising taxes - you get way more money from this than by giving the fief away, even with the -whatever% penalty in place. Getting a quarter (in most cases, much more, depending on your stewards abilities) of a enormous tax income is always better than 45% of a lowly mayors income.

Which is an excellent point when you're a Count and need to raise as much money as possible. Then a rational method is to imprison and banish everyone so as to gain some delicious coin. But there are far better things for your Steward to be doing than collecting taxes all the time. Once you're a bit bigger at least.

 

[Sian]

in your capital country ... unless its heavily developed coast cities, i'd wager that equally developed Mosques give more cash

 

[DarkPhoenix]

But there are far better things for your Steward to be doing than collecting taxes all the time. Once you're a bit bigger at least.

I don't know. Once you have a number of holdings close to your demesne limit (crossing this one never pays off financially, in my experience, usually you global income *rises* once you get rid of the excess holdings - but of course there are always strategic factors to be considered), building time doesn't matter much, because with enough money you are improving multiple holdings at once. And improving economic tech helps, yes, but I still mostly go for the money. But I guess this is a very personal choice

 

[arothuris]

Hi again everyone, I have a few more questions about the muslim mechanics and from gameplay, hope you all will be nice enough to fill me in again

About decadence, I've seen in the tooltip that says something like, to reduce decadence you would imprison, execute or banish male relatives. I dun understand the bit about banishing... Wouldn't that just make the guy causing decadence somewhere out of my control? Or does it not count towards my decadence when he's not in my realm? What if he somehow get some land from his new liege?

I recently re-created the Sunni Caliph (the old Caliph was conquered by Fatmids but he still has lands, dun know how he lost the Caliph title... Can you revoke a titular title as a liege coz u can't usurp it obviously) but I can't seem to call Jihad. Is there some requirement to call one? And, being a Caliph, is there nothing I can do besides calling Jihads and no other bonuses towards my "religious subjects"?

I found Oghuz is actually a pretty fun pick to play with. Challenging yet not impossible. Some small update with my game and questions follow:

I started off with building up my capital for a few years so I could get more troops, gave up on tech totally as u all know, 0 tech all around in the area. Then the neighbouring Cuman highchiefs got some ideas with my lands, and 1 waged war on me after another. I was a few hundred men short compared to them, but somehow I managed to defeat them in battles (I was thrilled when I won, coz I thought I was gonna lose lands). Then with help from mercs, I took out Khiva county by county. It seems only logical to take Khiva's land as he's the only one around which is around the same size as me. After taking Khiva, I saw Cumans having a civil war so I took the opportunity to holy war my dejure duchy back (I formed Khwarizm beforehand). Since the Cumans were so involved in their own war, I didn't even see any of their troops at all during the conquest. I called up my ally the Fatimids, but the war was over before they reach the north. Then I saw the Cumans again is at war, helping someone to defend the Hungarians. Since the Fatimid troops around, I thought it would be a good idea to take advantage. I thought it's really irrevelent to take a relation hit with all pagan rulers for breaking a truce, so I invade Cumania. In this war I only contributed like 20% to warscores as my ruler died of old age in the middle of the compaign, and a sucession crisis broke out so I have to move my troops back home. Fatimids did the first half of the fight for me, then they pulled back their troops too due to a civil war. But before that I called up the Seljuk (Actually I should call them Belekid as they were conquered due to decadence, but I found that name quite... strange :wacko: ) after seeing them finished their civil war, and they showed up rite on time and took over from the Fatimids. So I got Cumania with my Turkish brothers the biggest contributor. They might have thought why didn't they just take the lands for themselves :rofl:

To make it short, I then moved on to take the southern lands in between me and ERE. Alania, some parts of Georgia and Crimea. Re-created the Sunni Caliph though I can't see what I can do with this title yet. Now comes the questions:

When the Mongols come (they should come in 70 - 90 years, It's around 1140 in my game atm) I will be rite in their paths. Both Ilkanate and Golden Horde will be blocked by my Ohguz Sultanate - Ilkanate should showed up around Khiva and Golden Horde around Omsk if I remember correctly from my last game. At first I was plannng on concentrating in the north, leave Ilkanate to my southern Turkish brothers to deal with, and I prepare to give up Khiva to the Ilkanate for that. But now I see Seljuk is pretty weak (the Seljuk got their lands back recently, although the sultan only control 1 county) - they basically have just Persia left to their control, with 2 or 3 duchies in eastern Arabia - should I change my plan and unite the Turks (i.e. take Persia), take on both hordes by myself, or should I let Fatimids to swallow up Seljuk, and have them fight the Ilkanate? I'm a bit reluctant to do that coz I dun think I can fight both hordes, although Persia is pretty tempting. If I go with my original plan, concentrate in the north, I still have the Golden Horde to deal with, so I will need to strengthen myself more. I was thinking about taking Russia or ERE, but not sure in which to take. Rus is pretty strong, they almost get all lands require to form Russia, but I doubt the AI would create a 2nd king title to form an empire, but they are strong nonetheless. But I think I could take them by myself with a little help with mercs. Dun think I need to say anything about ERE, they are of coz IMMENSELY strong. I'm allied with Fatimids and Seljuk, so I think I still have a chance if both of my allies show up should I choose to get ERE. So, what should I do? Take Persia, fight both hordes, or leave the south to whoever and just focus in the north? I will need to get stronger with both plans anyway, so should I take Rus or ERE? Any adises?

 

[solamyas]

ERE and Seljuks have vassal mercenaries, if you usurp the title you will have almost free mercenary (is it posible to usurp ERE?) If hashashins dont assasinete your people ( you are pretty close to alamut therefore they must assasinete but i dont know) dont go for the ERE, after you conquered anatolia they will start to killing key person in your kingdom. Did you plan to give up perm or volga-bulgaria if so forget the jizya bonus and convert every tengrist county to sunni islam

 

[arothuris]

I had the hashashins killing one of my courtiers event for a few times, before I conquered Cumania I think. They havn't showed up for a while though. Dun know if its coz I moved my capital to Georgia (for techs of coz, I finally HAVE some tech :rofl: ) So are you suggesting if I take Anatolia, they will turn up again?

For Golden Horde, I was thinking I will fight them to the bitter end :angry: So no, I'm not gonna give up anything to them. If they want anything, they will have to take it by force. Btw, I dun occupy any of the 2 duchies (kingdoms) u suggested. Volga-Bulgaria is owned by RUS except for 1 county, which is the Cuman's capital. Perm (the kingdom) is splitted between RUS and Cuman. Cuman is pretty weak now, they only have the lands I just mentioned. I was just seeing if RUS would take those and form Russia, but I'm getting a bit impatient as they just sit and do nothing. I might take out the Cumans before deciding my strategies.

 

[arothuris]

Just found that I would usurp ERE as a muslim, but I wont be able to do so at this moment even I take everything from the Basileus, coz u need to control 80% of its de jure counties, and they themselves dun even control that many of their de jure land hmy:

Sicily is currently controlled by the knights templar, they won it back from the fatimids in a crusade. Strangely, they werent grant the kingdom or try to create it themselves. Do the holy orders tend not to create kingdoms? Just wonder, if I use the invssion cb on them, would this holy order become my vassal, since thats what muslim invasion cb usually does? A very strange thought, christian holy order being a vassal to the muslim caliph... but it just kind of pop up in my head :rofl:

 

[solamyas]

When i play as ERE after reconquered Anatolia from Seljuk sultanate of Rum they start killing not only my courtiers but some great counselors. Constantinople is far away form Masyaf and Alamut then Georgia but my stewards are persian guy who convert to orthodox and historically hashhashins call every persian who is under non persian rule, traitor. They even killed greatest vizier in Turko-Persian history, Nizam al-Mulk.

Holy orders have "Cannot be held as a secondary title" tag and their title is duchy so they cant held kingdom. Knights Templar dont have "Cannot be vassalized" tag but after vassalized them i guess you cant use their holy mercenary. Maybe after vassalized by Caliph, current grandmaster will be lost his title and call himself beylerbey of sicily or something

 

[arothuris]

The way the hashashins show up in the game is pretty illogical I reckon. Their first stronghold, alamut, is in persia & held by a sunni turkish lord before they took it for themselves. I mean, why would the turkish guy just give his land to a group of shia assassins? And their second holding, masyaf, was mostly under fatimid control when they turn up in my games, and I guess its fine the fatimids allow them to take the mosque. But sometimes the place is in ERE's hands. If there would be a slim reason as to why the turkish guy gives out his holding to the assassins, I dun see any reasoning behind the ERE gives out her land. Yeah, its a event, they have no say in it, but cant it be made a bit more logical?

And I so regret to have forgotten about them after the pop up said they appear, until they start killing courtiers of mine. I should have use all my power to get the claimants of those 2 places into my court and push their claims...No claimants left now. This is the first time I regret so much for not trying to press someone else claims for them.

Holy orders have "Cannot be held as a secondary title" tag and their title is duchy so they cant held kingdom. Knights Templar dont have "Cannot be vassalized" tag but after vassalized them i guess you cant use their holy mercenary. Maybe after vassalized by Caliph, current grandmaster will be lost his title and call himself beylerbey of sicily or something

I guess so myself. But I will load an earlier save up as the fatmid caliph and try see what happen. Oghuz is too far away to test things

 

[The_Blind_One]

The way the hashashins show up in the game is pretty illogical I reckon. Their first stronghold, alamut, is in persia & held by a sunni turkish lord before they took it for themselves. I mean, why would the turkish guy just give his land to a group of shia assassins? And their second holding, masyaf, was mostly under fatimid control when they turn up in my games, and I guess its fine the fatimids allow them to take the mosque. But sometimes the place is in ERE's hands. If there would be a slim reason as to why the turkish guy gives out his holding to the assassins, I dun see any reasoning behind the ERE gives out her land. Yeah, its a event, they have no say in it, but cant it be made a bit more logical?

And I so regret to have forgotten about them after the pop up said they appear, until they start killing courtiers of mine. I should have use all my power to get the claimants of those 2 places into my court and push their claims...No claimants left now. This is the first time I regret so much for not trying to press someone else claims for them.



I guess so myself. But I will load an earlier save up as the fatmid caliph and try see what happen. Oghuz is too far away to test things

Historicaly if I remember correctly without using wiki. The assasins leader tried to buy the castle but wasn't able to, so he tricked the owner.

When the assassins leader offered gold for the castle, the lord said he would only give as much land as the skin of an animal could fit and he offered this in return for the gold.

The leader accepted the skin in payment of gold and went on to cut the skin into fine threads. He then wove them around the castle and proclaimed that all that was within the skin to be his. The owner of the castle agreed that indeed everything that was within the skin to be his.

If I am wrong, someone plz correct me lol I don't know where I got the story from anymore... lets hope my memory has lasted!