Offering vassalization should not increase threat level

[Unready]

...Always but especially when the game has several bugs what allow vassals of your vassals suddenly became independent.

It is very annoying what you just ask Emir of Bagdad, who share your culture and religion, to join your Empire because he is your de-jure vassal as sultan of Mesopotamia and Badshah or Arabian Empire and got +50% of threat.
Really the same amount of threat as invasion on Greece year ago.

And you may ask how duke of Bagdad became independent well inside my borders first place?
I don't know - he was vassal of my viceroy and when I receive message what he died and I inherited viceroyalty back I saw dukedom as independent. Really considered as bug, which I see for many versions but not really annoyed me before because I could just offer to vassalize him back without future consequences.
But not now. Now it just ruin all my plans to Jihad Italy because my threat level have rised from 25% to 75% just for one offer.

 

[y1kdcb5au9rqw]

I agree with you that this is a very annoying occurrence that has also happened to me several times (save game editing to the rescue once again ).

I believe the reason why it works like this is that if you deliberately grant independence to a vassal your threat decreases thus it would be a serious exploit if you could vassalise them again for free.

 

[Maeldun]

50% threat for a single duchy doesn't sound right. Did the emir have more land than just one duchy? How many counties and total holdings? I vassalized the duke of Kabilya (5 counties held) and only received 9% threat. Threat is based on land gained or lost. The game doesn't care how it happened. It's perceived by other realms as a change in your realm size.

 

[Unready]

I believe the reason why it works like this is that if you deliberately grant independence to a vassal your threat decreases thus it would be a serious exploit if you could vassalise them again for free.

Threat level decrease only if you grant independence outside your de-jure realm.
So I can't see a problem for free readmission of your de-jure vassals.

50% threat for a single duchy doesn't sound right. Did the emir have more land than just one duchy? How many counties and total holdings? I vassalized the duke of Kabilya (5 counties held) and only received 9% threat. Threat is based on land gained or lost. The game doesn't care how it happened. It's perceived by other realms as a change in your realm size.

No. Only one duchy but for 15% per county with 50% cap, and emirate of Bagdad have six.
It is normal price tag for my game.

 

[y1kdcb5au9rqw]

Threat level decrease only if you grant independence outside your de-jure realm.
So I can't see a problem for free readmission of your de-jure vassals.

I think it would be better if they fixed the problem with vassals becoming independent by accident in the first place

 

[gdj]

Why should peaceful vassalization not cause threat? You are getting bigger, stronger and more powerful, so you are of course more "threatening".

As to the perceived bug of counties and duchies getting Independence for (apparently) no reason, some clearance from the devs would be nice instead of letting the players guessing why what workas in which way.

 

[Unready]

Why should peaceful vassalization not cause threat? You are getting bigger, stronger and more powerful, so you are of course more "threatening".

That's the difference between peaceful and not-quite-so expansions.
Peaceful uniting of culture (or culture group) shouldn't be so threating of independence for people who simple doesn't belong to it.

 

[Ruwaard]

That's the difference between peaceful and not-quite-so expansions.
Peaceful uniting of culture (or culture group) shouldn't be so threating of independence for people who simple doesn't belong to it.

Yes and no. Peaceful unification, IMHO as @gdj points makes you bigger, stronger and more powerful, this should alert neighbouring powers. OTOH aggressive expansion IMHO should lead to an even bigger increase in perceived threat.

 

[indika_tates]

When I see people on forum still defending the threat mechanic I have to laugh so loud. It's a complete fail that doesn't solve anything. So, let's check this situation. The player vassalizes a "exiled" vassal of his dejure empire. Then, suddenly his threat increases to 50%. A defensive pact of a bengal indian guy rises. It's because they have mobile phones. Then, the indian guy calls the lombard king. Hey mate do you know what did the caliph? He vassalized a duke from his dejure empire? Let's group together to defend against him.

Then, the caliph attack a count from Sicily. Immediately the bengal guy which is near indonesia joins the defensive war against a county in sicily. Who needs Vasco da Gama in CK II?
And the worst thing is that this stupid mechanic doesn't stop blobbing. A mechanic to stop blobbing was needed? Yes, of course. But the first fact doesn't justify this son of satan called threat which ruined the game. And as I said, it doesn't stop blobbing.

 

[gdj]

When I see people on forum still defending the threat mechanic I have to laugh so loud. It's a complete fail that doesn't solve anything. So, let's check this situation. The player vassalizes a "exiled" vassal of his dejure empire. Then, suddenly his threat increases to 50%. A defensive pact of a bengal indian guy rises. It's because they have mobile phones. Then, the indian guy calls the lombard king. Hey mate do you know what did the caliph? He vassalized a duke from his dejure empire? Let's group together to defend against him.

Then, the caliph attack a count from Sicily. Immediately the bengal guy which is near indonesia joins the defensive war against a county in sicily. Who needs Vasco da Gama in CK II?
And the worst thing is that this stupid mechanic doesn't stop blobbing. A mechanic to stop blobbing was needed? Yes, of course. But the first fact doesn't justify this son of satan called threat which ruined the game. And as I said, it doesn't stop blobbing.

View attachment 164245

It´s primarily supposed to stop AI blobbing, not your blobbing. Why, you ask? Because experienced players can circumvent any game mechanic by exploits and the like. Your "argument" works with any mechanic in any game.

By the way, you do realize that threat distinguishes now between religion groups, yes?

 

[gdj]

That's the difference between peaceful and not-quite-so expansions.
Peaceful uniting of culture (or culture group) shouldn't be so threating of independence for people who simple doesn't belong to it.

You already get less threat from vassalizing your own de jure duchies, at least as of 2.5.2.3. beta.

If someone gets 50% for his own de jure duchy, he must be already so large and threatening (not to mention absurd in hisorical terms - see picture posted above) that any expansion is a perceived problem.

Sorry, none of the arguments posted so far in all the threads is in any way convincing because ultimately all of it comes down to the "problem" that your expansion becomes more difficult - in a game that is primarily a dynasty simulator and not a map painting wargame.

 

[szmik]

But silly phoney defensive pact members, as laughable feature as it is, it doesn't actually ruin the game, just the immersion, because it doesn't quite work as intended (?)*. You can safely ignore the mechanic and proceed with whatever you feel like, within certain boundaries.

*hopefully it wasn't intended the way it works atm or sanity of inventor is questionable.

 

[Unready]

You already get less threat from vassalizing your own de jure duchies, at least as of 2.5.2.3. beta.

If someone gets 50% for his own de jure duchy, he must be already so large and threatening (not to mention absurd in hisorical terms - see picture posted above) that any expansion is a perceived problem.

Sorry, none of the arguments posted so far in all the threads is in any way convincing because ultimately all of it comes down to the "problem" that your expansion becomes more difficult - in a game that is primarily a dynasty simulator and not a map painting wargame.

What is 2.5.2.3 beta? I play 2.5.2 (YZAZ) And in this version it is not so.

 

[Maeldun]

How many counties and total holdings?

No. Only one duchy but for 15% per county with 50% cap, and emirate of Bagdad have six.
It is normal price tag for my game.

You didn't answer the question. How many total holdings joined your realm as a result of the vassalization? The total amount of threat may be based on number of holdings and those counties tend to be filled up fairly quickly as I recall. If it's more heavily weighted toward castles and those counties have 2-3 castles each, it's not difficult to see how you could gain so much threat from one duchy.

 

[Unready]

You didn't answer the question. How many total holdings joined your realm as a result of the vassalization? The total amount of threat may be based on number of holdings and those counties tend to be filled up fairly quickly as I recall.

5 of 6 provinces of emirate of Bagdad (exception is Bagdad itself)

Each province costs 15%. Cap is 50%. How many holdings per province already doesn't matter in this case.
So if you take more then 3 - you got 50%
Total cap is 100%

 

[BD13]

50% threat for a single duchy doesn't sound right. Did the emir have more land than just one duchy? How many counties and total holdings? I vassalized the duke of Kabilya (5 counties held) and only received 9% threat. Threat is based on land gained or lost. The game doesn't care how it happened. It's perceived by other realms as a change in your realm size.

This is really easy to repeat. Just fire up an abasssids game in the Charley bookmark. You can easily get 100 infamy 1 minute into the game by offering vassalizations.

IMO this mechanic is most broken for them.

They need to close the potential loophole and give less threat for peaceful vassalizations.

 

[Bernard95]

I'm probably one of the only people that see threat and defensive pacts as not a huge deal, but even I have to admit when you take a more peaceful option such as inheriting or vassalizing that should give you a reduced amount of threat. It still makes sense that if you just doubled your realm size by inheriting Byzantium or something that people are going to be terrified of you, but at least you didn't outright invade them and put them all to the sword. If anything, the whole threat and defensive pact system should be encouraging you to find more subtle ways of gaining land (such as through intrigue and marriage) rather than breaking out your invasion or holy war cb constantly.

 

[BD13]

If someone gets 50% for his own de jure duchy, he must be already so large and threatening (not to mention absurd in hisorical terms - see picture posted above) that any expansion is a perceived problem.

Not true. See my example from above.

 

[szmik]

Meh, Abbasids in Charlie start can get 4 or 5 vassals for the cost of 2 (100%), it's a good deal if you ask me.

 

[BD13]

Meh, Abbasids in Charlie start can get 4 or 5 vassals for the cost of 2 (100%), it's a good deal if you ask me.

True but my point is that it isn't that hard to get 50 threat for one vassalization. At the start it is only a good deal because you can take advantage of the 100 cap.

In a situation like the ops it would be a bitter pill to swallow. It will take a long time for that threat to decay for no gain.