Offensive Call To Arms is a one way street

[RMS Oceanic]

Having played a Prussia game where Prussia itself was delayed by over a decade because my allies kept dragging me into different wars - and occasionally being forced to defend my Religious brethren as DotF - I'm noticing an imbalance in how Call to Arms works. Specifically, when I go to war I can see whether my ally will join, and if not, no harm no foul, I can wait or make other arrangements. But the AI can't make this determination. They can only send you an ultimatum of "join the war right now or we're through", frequently interrupting time sensitive stuff I'm doing elsewhere. I'm wondering if there may be a way of changing this so the mechanics are on an even playing field, even to let you get the few days peace you need to do the peace only stuff you need to do like crownland/vassal management and important decisions. Or is this too "analog" a problem because human players' reasons to accept/reject CTA cannot be quantified? I know there's a "no Offensive Wars" checkbox but that carries penalties and risks of ending the alliance regardless.

 

[MrSnert]

You already have two months before you actually need to accept the call, and can use that time to get your affairs in order: do your estate stuff, scutage vassals that you want to integrate etc.

 

[Cookiepie]

Having played a Prussia game where Prussia itself was delayed by over a decade because my allies kept dragging me into different wars - and occasionally being forced to defend my Religious brethren as DotF - I'm noticing an imbalance in how Call to Arms works. Specifically, when I go to war I can see whether my ally will join, and if not, no harm no foul, I can wait or make other arrangements. But the AI can't make this determination. They can only send you an ultimatum of "join the war right now or we're through", frequently interrupting time sensitive stuff I'm doing elsewhere. I'm wondering if there may be a way of changing this so the mechanics are on an even playing field, even to let you get the few days peace you need to do the peace only stuff you need to do like crownland/vassal management and important decisions. Or is this too "analog" a problem because human players' reasons to accept/reject CTA cannot be quantified? I know there's a "no Offensive Wars" checkbox but that carries penalties and risks of ending the alliance regardless.

They only call you if an ai in your position would accept, so it's really you as the player having an additional advantage.

Equal playing field would be you not having the choice to decline.

 

[Lykus Cerebros]

They only call you if an ai in your position would accept, so it's really you as the player having an additional advantage.

This.

The AI uses the same factors as the ones shown to you when deciding to invite you or not.

EDIT: The player is affected more since most players are not as heavy in debt as the AI.

 

[Pandrea]

And there's the opposite problem: when your strongest allied go into a suicide war and he doesn't call you even if you'd desperately like avoid his destruction because you have a couple of debts

 

[Blust]

You can refuse a call to arms from allies if you want a couple of years in peace, just be careful with declining trust

 

[beaver79]

I always just check off the won't join offensive wars button. If they declared on a major power it will take 15 years for them to peace out and you will likely get nothing.

The emperor has to be the worst ally possible. Have fun always being the punching bag in constant wars and then have him hit you with return hre territory even with 200 relations.

 

[bestbrian]

The "Won't Join Offensive Wars" button is your best friend, especially once you get big enough that everyone wants to use you as their goon army (just as you did to them when you were smaller).

 

[Restless Native]

The "Won't Join Offensive Wars" button is your best friend, especially once you get big enough that everyone wants to use you as their goon army (just as you did to them when you were smaller).

This. Always use this. When you’ve enough trust and especially if you’re way bigger than them.

 

[Reman]

The "no offensive wars" button typically isn't worth clicking considering it gives you penalties to favor generation and there's so many other easy ways to get out of offensive CTAs. Being at war constantly is one way. Having some debt is another. You only need like 1 or 2 loans to brick the AI's ability to call you into offensive wars. The cheap loans from the burghers work well enough here, e.g. Bengal taking the 5 loans in 1444 gives -128 reasons for offensive CTA while costing only 0.37 a month in interest on a starting budget of 14.81 ducats per month. You could likely pay off all but 1-2 loans if you really want to skimp here. For reference, a single min level mothballed fort costs 0.50 ducats a month.

 

[RMS Oceanic]

The "no offensive wars" button typically isn't worth clicking considering it gives you penalties to favor generation and there's so many other easy ways to get out of offensive CTAs. Being at war constantly is one way. Having some debt is another. You only need like 1 or 2 loans to brick the AI's ability to call you into offensive wars. The cheap loans from the burghers work well enough here, e.g. Bengal taking the 5 loans in 1444 gives -128 reasons for offensive CTA while costing only 0.37 a month in interest on a starting budget of 14.81 ducats per month. You could likely pay off all but 1-2 loans if you really want to skimp here. For reference, a single min level mothballed fort costs 0.50 ducats a month.

The inciting incident in this particular case was

- I fought an offensive war of my own design
- Oops, my ally Austria called me in to defend Liege. Sucks but that's the double edged sword of allying the Emperor
- I wrap up my offensive war, help Austria
- Saxony then calls me in to an offensive war of their own during the Austrian war, so two groups of wars
- Austria eventually peaces out, Saxony war continues.
- Oh no, Protestant Frankfurt is getting bullied by Catholic Mainz! Sigh
- Saxony eventually peaces out, gotta park my not quite space marines on Mainz
- Austria now calls me into a war in the Balkans during the Frankfurt war. More sigh
- Finally Protestant Malta is getting attacked by Tunis and has called in the Ottomans, which is when I finally let the DotF go.

It was over a decade of literal nonstop war, chaining from defensive to offensive.

I suppose what can be annoying to deal with is the player checks whether their ally would join, which is equivalent to being able to ask "Hey, if I declared this war and ask you to join, would you?" They answer no and I act accordingly. The problem is the AI can never just put such feelers out there and live and let live if it's not convenient to me. It's always the ultimatum, "join me now or suffer consequences". I'd love a mechanism the AI could use, even if pre-emptively declining the question costs relationship or something.

 

[The_Boominator]

I would love to see a "defensive pact" introduced to the game. They existed in the time period and it makes sense. Obviously we have guarantees, but it would be nice if two nations could enter into a mutual defense pact like trade league members do (obviously not a league like trade leagues, though). It should still take up a diplo relations slot, but there are many times I would prefer to simply have a defensive ally. I would love if Paradox introduced this feature because AI allies are annoying as hell and there's no way to force them to make peace once they start a war and call you in.

 

[Restless Native]

The "no offensive wars" button typically isn't worth clicking considering it gives you penalties to favor generation and there's so many other easy ways to get out of offensive CTAs. Being at war constantly is one way. Having some debt is another. You only need like 1 or 2 loans to brick the AI's ability to call you into offensive wars. The cheap loans from the burghers work well enough here, e.g. Bengal taking the 5 loans in 1444 gives -128 reasons for offensive CTA while costing only 0.37 a month in interest on a starting budget of 14.81 ducats per month. You could likely pay off all but 1-2 loans if you really want to skimp here. For reference, a single min level mothballed fort costs 0.50 ducats a month.

It’s a choice. Build up favours if you’ll need them, otherwise use ‘no offensive wars’ to avoid getting dragged into wars you don’t need. The ally is still there defensively and if you really need favours you can use a diplomat. Either way you have a choice, and not everyone knows about the option. It’s awkward to find.

 

[Damedius]

I agree the AI has plethora of reasons it won't join your war but has no problem calling you into war it wouldn't join itself.

It's like most things in EU4 though, it's there to keep the game from being to easy.

 

[PDXJon]

The "Won't Join Offensive Wars" button is your best friend, especially once you get big enough that everyone wants to use you as their goon army (just as you did to them when you were smaller).

I prefer marking any potential defender to my allies as friendly. They won’t call you in and you still accrue favors. If there are times where I want to join, I’ll mark them as hostile. I use this a lot when allied to Burgundy so I can keep them from being shredded while attacking into the empire.

 

[Cookiepie]

I agree the AI has plethora of reasons it won't join your war but has no problem calling you into war it wouldn't join itself.

It's like most things in EU4 though, it's there to keep the game from being to easy.

It will never call you into a war it wouldn't join itself if it was in your position.

 

[Damedius]

It will never call you into a war it wouldn't join itself if it was in your position.

Are you sure?

There are plenty of times I can't call my ally because of Distant War only to be called into a Distant War by them.

 

[PDXJon]

Are you sure?

There are plenty of times I can't call my ally because of Distant War only to be called into a Distant War by them.

I’ve seen allies declare distant wars without calling me in. I’m not saying that it’s true all the time, but it happens. On the other hand, I’ve been called in distant wars and while fighting another war if my ally declares on my rival.

 

[Big Bad France]

And there's the opposite problem: when your strongest allied go into a suicide war and he doesn't call you even if you'd desperately like avoid his destruction because you have a couple of debts

You can always offer free condottieri, though.

 

[PDXJon]

You can always offer free condottieri, though.

This is one of the hidden benefits of admin and pluto ideas. You can offer larger condottieri armies.