Agreed. Let's concentrate on getting the Ottomans out of perpetual poverty and bankruptcy before we discuss expansion beyond Asia Minor and such.
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Agreed. Let's concentrate on getting the Ottomans out of perpetual poverty and bankruptcy before we discuss expansion beyond Asia Minor and such.
I've posted this in a few threads, but I think it would help the Ottomans out quite a bit (especially early on).
Tie the support limits to the monarch's MIL rating, with 9 being the support from Eu2v1.05 (tons of troops, low costs) and 3 being 4x that (slightly higher than the current 1.07 costs).
Give a 50% cost increase for each point below 9, so that 9 is 1.00, 8 is 1.5, 7 is 2.0, 6 is 2.5, 5 is 3.0 (1.06 default), 4 is 3.5, and 3 is 4.0
Otts have great monarchs early on, so their limit will be much higher, which will let them afford all those troops.
In addition, this could even be modified down a bit to make more favourable monarchs better than the original. After all, Frederick the Great fielded "An Army with a State".
1.06 was great from a player balance POV, but it affected the game in huge ways that might not have been fully tested
Duuk
Tie the support limits to the monarch's MIL rating, with 9 being the support from Eu2v1.05 (tons of troops, low costs) and 3 being 4x that (slightly higher than the current 1.07 costs).
Give a 50% cost increase for each point below 9, so that 9 is 1.00, 8 is 1.5, 7 is 2.0, 6 is 2.5, 5 is 3.0 (1.06 default), 4 is 3.5, and 3 is 4.0
Otts have great monarchs early on, so their limit will be much higher, which will let them afford all those troops.
In addition, this could even be modified down a bit to make more favourable monarchs better than the original. After all, Frederick the Great fielded "An Army with a State".
1.06 was great from a player balance POV, but it affected the game in huge ways that might not have been fully tested
Duuk
The transfer from EU I to EU II hit Ottoman hardest, i think.
They lost:
1)Morale bonus (full one point, twice reformed bonus)
2)Cheap infantry (at least twice cheaper than any other country, except Russia, more likely three times cheaper)
3)Lots of income, from different religion and different culture penalties.
OTOH, protestant and reformed bonuses were lowered, lol
Now, in EU I Ottomans were indeed formidable foe, but seems they didn't exactly survived the transfer.
Oh, those things (infra 1, few ducats, mil monarch support) won't solve anything. Of course, Ottomans will be slightly better, but it won't be enough.
The map, it seems that straight horizontal lines are vassals-Crimean, Romanians Hospodars, Transylvania, etc.
The only times i have seen Ottomans doing historically (well, almost ) was when i gave them 9 landtech (meaning-they had fire phase 80 years before anyone else, and thus pretty much free reign in wars). Well, if it takes that much to get them moving, its obvious such little changes won't do much.
The map, it seems that straight horizontal lines are vassals-Crimean, Romanians Hospodars, Transylvania, etc.
The only times i have seen Ottomans doing historically (well, almost
) was when i gave them 9 landtech (meaning-they had fire phase 80 years before anyone else, and thus pretty much free reign in wars). Well, if it takes that much to get them moving, its obvious such little changes won't do much.
As long as the AI plays it is the problem of the AI. If I play the OE I have absolutely no problems of getting them up and started. 1419 is difficult but I use the army immeaditly on Karaman, Duchy of Athens and Byzantium at the same time. And 3-5 years later get Constantinople.
One idea would be to make Byzanz one-province and put it on the fight list together with 1-2 other countries only.
One idea would be to make Byzanz one-province and put it on the fight list together with 1-2 other countries only.
Actually, MP Ottomans usually underperforms, too. At least thats hapenned in every game i've seen (well, apart from the one i was playing them )
)
I've always believed that Morea should be a vassal of Byzantium. In fact, it would be more historically accurate. I think the only reason Morea was given to Byzantium in the game was to stop the Ottomans from getting Thrace too quickly.
The large army is necessary for the ottomans. I usually use it against Byzantium and Karaman (or what ever that three province minor is called). Most of the army is gone by the time I have won the wars (and the others that are caused by the world+dog DOWing you). Without the army you have a completely hopeless battle against the uber-Albanian and Siebenburgan forces, who frequently can pump in 30+ armies into your provinces, which wears you down...
IMO the simplest solution is the best: increase Ottoman initial infra to 1; increase initial cash to 1000.
IMO the simplest solution is the best: increase Ottoman initial infra to 1; increase initial cash to 1000.
Let's generalize the issue. Because of the tax collector change it might be wise to increase all countries' starting cash by 125 ducats or 25%, whichever is the bigger value. I bet a script could be made to do this rather simply.
In other words, you propose giving all countries (or at least those with Infra 1) the means to immediately build several TCs... wouldn't it make more sense to simply give them the TCs themselves? It's not as if anyone in their right mind would choose to use the money for anthing else; with the new rule there's really no reason NOT to build a TC asap, ever.
Phil
I dont see the Ottomans under performing and when handled well they are unstoppable.
A tweak or two in certain spots may be required to help them out
but really its an AI issue. The AI doesnt seem to be able to handle them.
If people can find justification for historical errors I'll support them but saying the Ottomans dont perform isnt enough.
A tweak or two in certain spots may be required to help them out
but really its an AI issue. The AI doesnt seem to be able to handle them.
If people can find justification for historical errors I'll support them but saying the Ottomans dont perform isnt enough.
One interesting thing I have noticed about the powers that are one thing I have noticed about the powers that are expected to become really big is that they do expand well at the start but they then stall. I tam thinking of Moscow/Russia and The Ottoman Empire here.
One big reason for this is the build up of BB points. Once these nations have a lot of BB they become more cautios about attacking and annexing. I found that at the end of the 15th century their bb is edited (to 10) they wake up again and make a second push.
(noted in an earlier patch but worth examining imho)
Spencer
One big reason for this is the build up of BB points. Once these nations have a lot of BB they become more cautios about attacking and annexing. I found that at the end of the 15th century their bb is edited (to 10) they wake up again and make a second push.
(noted in an earlier patch but worth examining imho)
Spencer
Well thats almost as big as historical errors get in my opinion...
I still think the Ottoman setup in 1419 needs to be tweaked.
when player controled they are very powerfull, but not so when ai controlled.
the ai probably can't be tweaked well enough to get that empire going.
it needs something else.
Originally posted by kurtbrian
Well thats almost as big as historical errors get in my opinion...
I still think the Ottoman setup in 1419 needs to be tweaked.
when player controled they are very powerfull, but not so when ai controlled.
the ai probably can't be tweaked well enough to get that empire going.
it needs something else.
Indeed, but lets not confuse AI and historical tweaking. Spencer made a very good point, we could probably do with more like it. So there are AI options for change without "doing something else" ie creating ahistorical stuff to get the Ottomans going.
I think there are a few historical changes that have justification but if you can fit them into existing events then you are probably on to a winner.
Regarding the 1419 scenario, does the AI still have issues with BYZ?
current game as Austria.
I have never been to war with the ottomans but they were a 2 province minor for well over a century(now they have 3 or 4) and Byzantium is still around in 1720....
I have never been to war with the ottomans but they were a 2 province minor for well over a century(now they have 3 or 4
) and Byzantium is still around in 1720....
They only MP game we both played and they reached their historical borders was MGC 4, and thats was when i was playing them
In SP they certainly do underperform. Or are you sole person who seen them achieve the borders on the map posted in this thread?
When did I claim this?
Read my posts and you will find that I think the opposite. I'm just saying that it needs some perspective.
I would use the same suggestion I used in Mad King James core province post.
They should be able to grow to their core without gaining too much BB, For that I would use the following rules :
- No BB for diplo annexing a core province (and no lowering the BB for releasing them, people aren't stupid)
- No BB for single province annexation within your core, regardless of religion
- Ability to ask for the capital province for 89% war score
- No BB for declaration of war on a country that is holding one of your core (i'm not sure that last one is essential, but it would save OE/russia some BB)
That wouldn't help with the incredibly high stab cost, but it would at least allow them to grow to a decent size without having everyone fighting them.
They should be able to grow to their core without gaining too much BB, For that I would use the following rules :
- No BB for diplo annexing a core province (and no lowering the BB for releasing them, people aren't stupid)
- No BB for single province annexation within your core, regardless of religion
- Ability to ask for the capital province for 89% war score
- No BB for declaration of war on a country that is holding one of your core (i'm not sure that last one is essential, but it would save OE/russia some BB)
That wouldn't help with the incredibly high stab cost, but it would at least allow them to grow to a decent size without having everyone fighting them.
with one of the previous beta pathces I did some extensive handsoff testing to try to "fix" the OE....basically I identified 4 problems:
1) the OE ai starts lagging behind in tech! (compared with later scenarios) - due to almost constant warfare? By 1492 OE typically has 4/3 land/naval tech whereas in the "Age of Exploration" it starts with 6/6....thus in the GC the OE never gets a CRT edge on the Mamelukes or the Hungarians until "too late".
2) the OE has some rotten DP settings...with high offensive yet not high enough for getting shock +1 and avarage naval-land where the OE really should have high land!?
3) the OE often attacks "the right nations at the wrong time" ...basically the ai OE shouls learn to eat up the minors before trying to dish it out to the majors!
4) Regardless of any fixes, what I have seen ruin the performance of the ai from time to time is when they manage to get into an early war vs the knighs.....the OE will just sit there and stare at them for 30yrs (after the ferocity was switched off) without trying to truly swamp them!
......................
Basically my OE fix was to edit a few DP effects from events & split up the OE ai file into 4 files:
a pre fall-of-byzantium file, including the anatolian minors, dutchy of athens and Byzantium in the target list.
A post fall-of-byzantium file, which in adition to the above added the balkan minors, georgia, DUL and AKK.
A final "land" expansion file, introduced in the final army reform event....this file is basically the "normal" ai file except Venice, Cypruss and the Knights are not included (the naval opponents).
A final ai file (vs. Venice), this file in introduced either in the Great Naval reform of 1515 or following the OEs conquest of the Mamelukes if the OE refuse to hand over Alexandria to Venice, whatever comes first! This file is the standard ai file.
My event DP changes:
change the 1st army reform events to:
A) "Reform Army" land +1, shock +3,
B) "Reform Both" shock +1, quality +2
C) "Reform Navy" land -1, quality +2, shock -1
change the 1st army reform events to:
A) "Reform Both" shock +1, quality +2
B) "Reform Navy" land -1, quality +2, shock -1
C) "Reform Army" land +1, shock +3
Great Naval Reform of 1515
A) quality +1
...All the decentralization events from 1600 onwards!!
A) quality -2
B) quality -1
C) ......
Basically this will give the OE +1 shock & +1 fire in the 16th century when they historically expanded like mad. - As I see it its one of the major problems for the ais is that they often have some rotten DP settings....
EDIT: ohh and the second army reform event was moved to happen a bit later...around 1465 or so.
1) the OE ai starts lagging behind in tech! (compared with later scenarios) - due to almost constant warfare? By 1492 OE typically has 4/3 land/naval tech whereas in the "Age of Exploration" it starts with 6/6....thus in the GC the OE never gets a CRT edge on the Mamelukes or the Hungarians until "too late".
2) the OE has some rotten DP settings...with high offensive yet not high enough for getting shock +1 and avarage naval-land where the OE really should have high land!?
3) the OE often attacks "the right nations at the wrong time" ...basically the ai OE shouls learn to eat up the minors before trying to dish it out to the majors!
4) Regardless of any fixes, what I have seen ruin the performance of the ai from time to time is when they manage to get into an early war vs the knighs.....the OE will just sit there and stare at them for 30yrs (after the ferocity was switched off) without trying to truly swamp them!
......................
Basically my OE fix was to edit a few DP effects from events & split up the OE ai file into 4 files:
a pre fall-of-byzantium file, including the anatolian minors, dutchy of athens and Byzantium in the target list.
A post fall-of-byzantium file, which in adition to the above added the balkan minors, georgia, DUL and AKK.
A final "land" expansion file, introduced in the final army reform event....this file is basically the "normal" ai file except Venice, Cypruss and the Knights are not included (the naval opponents).
A final ai file (vs. Venice), this file in introduced either in the Great Naval reform of 1515 or following the OEs conquest of the Mamelukes if the OE refuse to hand over Alexandria to Venice, whatever comes first! This file is the standard ai file.
My event DP changes:
change the 1st army reform events to:
A) "Reform Army" land +1, shock +3,
B) "Reform Both" shock +1, quality +2
C) "Reform Navy" land -1, quality +2, shock -1
change the 1st army reform events to:
A) "Reform Both" shock +1, quality +2
B) "Reform Navy" land -1, quality +2, shock -1
C) "Reform Army" land +1, shock +3
Great Naval Reform of 1515
A) quality +1
...All the decentralization events from 1600 onwards!!
A) quality -2
B) quality -1
C) ......
Basically this will give the OE +1 shock & +1 fire in the 16th century when they historically expanded like mad. - As I see it its one of the major problems for the ais is that they often have some rotten DP settings....
EDIT: ohh and the second army reform event was moved to happen a bit later...around 1465 or so.
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more streightjacket type of fixes.
I also experienced with an ai-only (both Byzantium & OE must be ai controlled) event which would simply make the OE inherit Byzantium anytime between 1434-1492 if Thrace is controlled by OE. - naturally this works wonders for OEs early problems but such straightjacket fixes should generally be avoided.
An additionaly problem of the OE is that since the Ai will probably NEVER be able to expand as fast as the OE did historically in the fairst half of the 16th century....the unreasonably straight Austrian inheritance of Hungary effectively blocks the door of the OE in that direction!
I have tried to test some events here but being forced to use existing events as basis makes it rather difficult to create some propor solutions.
I also experienced with an ai-only (both Byzantium & OE must be ai controlled) event which would simply make the OE inherit Byzantium anytime between 1434-1492 if Thrace is controlled by OE. - naturally this works wonders for OEs early problems but such straightjacket fixes should generally be avoided.
An additionaly problem of the OE is that since the Ai will probably NEVER be able to expand as fast as the OE did historically in the fairst half of the 16th century....the unreasonably straight Austrian inheritance of Hungary effectively blocks the door of the OE in that direction!
I have tried to test some events here but being forced to use existing events as basis makes it rather difficult to create some propor solutions.