OE needs help (Beta ideas)

[Porcius]

The OE does fine in 1.07, at least at the beginning. The Turks usually expand into Hungary and Persia and beat the Mamelukes in a couple of wars before inheriting the whole lot. The end game is usually pretty brutal for the Turks - Austria gets really big and the Turks lag in tech. If Austria can get taken down a peg, the Turks will be the primary beneficiary.

The beta "no taxation without TC" thing is the real OE killer.

 

[Porcius]

I see no reason not to just junk the TC-census tax beta thing. This is a major impediment to a lot of poor states - Poland, Lithuania, the Turks, the Timurids - and causes more problems than it solves. I can't remember what the justification was beyond the "Why should I bother with TCs?" - more a rhetorical question than a clear rationale for such a major change.

Give the AI OE 750 more ducats and it will spend it all on troops once a war starts - and you know how the Ottomans love wars.

Give it TCs at the start and it's just a matter of time before all the poor states' advocates call for them.

The Turks perform fairly well in vanilla 1.07 most of the time. They are certainly not the weak sister they were in 1.04. One pattern I have noticed is that failure of the AI to choose the CoT in Thrace usually leads to a hard few centuries for the Turks. Such is the nature of events - one bad choice can cripple the AI for a long time.

How often do Karaman and Teke and Candar really challenge the Ottomans? The perfect is the enemy of the good, and the Turks do reach their historical limits much more than the Russians do, or even the Mughals for that matter.

 

[Porcius]

Originally posted by Michaelis
Well in my 5th game with the latest 1.07 patch (aptil 10) I finally saw what every one is complaining about. By 1480, the OE was down to 2 provinces. BUT as far as I could see the reasons for that were such that they are not going to be solved by any of the solutions mentioned earlier in this thread.

What happened was that OE got off to a good start, capturing Thrace by 1421, but subsequently froze: Byzantium had 31k in Morea, Ottomans couldn't take it, and everything stood still for the next10 years. Eventually a peace was signed which returned everything to the status quo. At this point the OE simply fell asleep. It was eaten alive in Asia Minor by Karman and Trebizond, in Europe by a combinations of states (Duchy of Hellas took Macedonia). I sent some ships round to keep watch, and believe me, the OE simply did NOTHING for sthg like 50 years.

No amount of tweaks will fix dead AI.

But how often do massacres of this type happen? Turkey is more often hampered by the powers on her east than her west. Byzantium falls in 90 per cent of the games to Turkey or one of her allies, Trebizond is never around for long (though Georgia gets it occasionally) and Karaman is eliminated more often than not. Since 1.05 I find that Turks reach their historical limits in the East and West a third of the time - impressive considering her past position in EU2 and the uncertainty of history.

We can't expect the AI to succeed all the time - let alone most of the time. The concern about Ottoman expansion is fine, but I still hold that the Russians and Mughals have greater problems that can be more easily solved. Turkey is surrounded by a lot of small states with no one else to pick on. If they get a good start, they are fine. A bad start is crippling. No good start can push Russia across Siberia and if the Mughals reach Delhi in half of the games I'd be surprised - especially with the new RR income cuts to the Timurids.

The Ottomans are not as successful as France or uber-Austria or Steroid Sweden, but they aren't the weakest sister on the block.

 

[Porcius]

Originally posted by DarthMaur
Have you really seen Ottomans taking most of Hungary, and bordering Algiers and Persia??? That would be something i never seen.

North Africa usually has an independent Tunisia in the way, but yes, I have seen them regularly border Persia, Austria and Tunis if not Algeria. They are often deep into Hungary, but this only lasts as long as a far superior Austria is distracted gobbling up German minors. Ak Koyunlu is a regular nuisance, but they are usually eliminated.

The Mediterranean islands usually stay in Venetian hands, excepting Cyprus, which falls half the time. The event giving the Ottoman control of the Mamelukes is a big factor in Turksih success, but since the Turks usually get Sinai in their first victorious war with the Mamelukes, it's just a matter of time before they occupy Cairo.

I'll try to find a screenshot...

As I have said elsewhere, the late game is where Turkey has most of its problems - not the early one.