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I'm working on a detailed timeline text at the moment, I know that's something people expect ASAP from an alt history and I apologize to everyone for not starting it sooner. I can't say for sure yet when this war took place but in my mind I placed it somewhere in the late 1870s or early 1880s.
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Alright, but though I'm not a history professor, I doubt the Norwegian people would accept a centralisation of power to Swedish hands even if they won some war.
That may or may not be true, hindsight is 20/20...I very much respect your and everyone elses opinion but I'm not bending over backwards to satisfy every nationalistic sentiment out there.
That being said I compromised using your advice and Swedish power in the union is decentralized more or less like OTL.
Edit: Updated the OP, including the faction preview screen
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Of course, I understand that. I'm in no position to demand anything, I'm just trying to make the scenario a little more plausible. Though I do realise that's pretty stupid.
Also, I would love the opportunity to play as puppet Norway from the beginning and seize all of Scandinavia through violent struggle, so thank you for compromising
And Danmark? Can become a swedish or prussian puppet, or can join Sweden and Norway and form the Scandinavia (kingdom or federation). What is her role?
Wallachia on the winning CP side could also get part of the Timok Valley in Serbia (populated by a sizable Romanian minority). Although I doubt Austria would want to give Romania too much territory for fear that it may turn against it, since Romania would still have its eyes on Transylvania. This could probably be done through an event: Romania asks for Timok, with Austria having a very low chance of acceptance, or none at all.
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Yeah, a midway peace talks that break down... or accepted, ending the war early. But if they wear down the Central armies, they can't do much against the peace treaties, meaning Austria could lose quite everything.
Updated map of Europe
Saxony now part of Austrian Empire
Westphalia to Prussia
North part of Hesse to Prussia
Norway added to map as puppet of Sweden to simulate the union
Saxony now part of Austrian Empire
Westphalia to Prussia
North part of Hesse to Prussia
Norway added to map as puppet of Sweden to simulate the union
I think it just looks worse now. Should've kept some German minors around just to balance Austria and Prussia.
Who will be the aggressiv power? Who will start the war? Entente, Central Powers or London Pact?
Are you just going by looks? Saxony sided with the Austrians in the Austro-Prussian war and were on the winning side. The game starts approx. 40 years later. After thinking it through...why wouldn't Saxony have joined Austria by this point? Independent Westphalia in 1901 simply felt awkward and going by my research Hesse needed a reduction. France has kept Austria and Prussia at bay in the west for a long time now but steadily the situation has turned more in favor of the two major German states. The map seems a bit more realistic to me, but I'll note the criticism.
I haven't worked that out completely yet but these were my recent thoughts on it:
- Russia has temporarily turned its attention away from adventures in the far east and has begun to express irredentist views on Poland.
- Prussia wants to wrest Rhine Federation from the French sphere of influence as well as annex Frankfurt and Hesse.
- Austria is feeling its' oats and confidently guarantees to defend Prussia. Austria believes Russia to be frail militarily, but it is not really true.
- France is uneasy with the rising Central Powers to the east and a less than amicable relationship with the British Empire across the channel. France and Russia reaffirm their commitments.
- Austria makes diplomatic and military motions around Venice and in the Balkans, as well as strengthening their relationship with Tuscany. Politics on the Italian peninsula become tense and there is a wave of uneasy rhetoric from all sides.
- In Paris, France--A destitute artist with anti-Napoleon, pro-Orleanist views fires on a group of state officials, wounding several high ranks and killing a favorite Foreign Minister of the Emperor. He is tortured and executed, with the Emperor himself as a witness. The event is widely publicized and some social unrest spreads across the country. Napoleon IV gains a heightened sense of paranoia thereafter.
- A Prussian diplomat makes a candid remark about Poland and Finland at a ball, offending an important member of the Russian nobility. The incident seems to cool off immediately but infact it snowballs into a feud. Russo-Prussian relations were poor beforehand, but the incident sours them a little further. Russia's attention was more focused on Austria and the Balkans prior to this happening.
- Inspired by recent events in France, a Venetian anarchist attempts to assasinate the King of Italy. He fails and is tortured and executed publicly in Milan. The Kingdom of Italy accuses Austrian agents of orchestrating the affair. France supports the claim by cancelling all diplomatic appointments with Austria for three days. Tensions in Italy between Austria and France increase significantly.
- Despite rising threats in other parts of Europe, the Austrian Empire develops a war game for a potential future conflict in the Balkans. Austria moves forces around the Serbian border, Hungarian troops assemble in Transylvania for extensive reorganization. This action puts an end to what little trust still remained between Austria and most of the Balkan countries.
... More to come; your input is welcome! ...
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So that explains why Prussia doesn't hold Silesia. Right now Prussia is "Northern Germany" and having the minors, added a little bit of colour to that region. Also The Baden-Austrian border contains 4 provinces as I can see it, couldn't there be a Duchy there to cut Austria a down to size a bit? It should still be a Austrian puppet. And why doesn't Switzerland have Geneva? Why is Saarbrücken in French hands?
And is it possible to fight a second Austro-Prussian war, win as Prussia and forge the German Empire? Is Willy alive and fit to rule Prussia and a German Empire?
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I appreciate questions and comments like this, it would take much longer to get around to reviewing parts of the map on my own.
Württemberg sided with Austria in the 19th century like Bavaria did, but you make a good point and perhaps they could be a puppet instead. However, I'm not fully convinced about it. I feel Baden is 'good enough' if you will as the only buffer between France and Austria, given their slightly more independent-minded history compared to Bavaria or Württemberg. At least that's the gist of what I gathered from reading the wikis. Not that looks are important here but as an added bonus I do think Württemberg looks good on the map as part of Austria.
My thinking on France holding Geneva was that France exploited the Sonderbund War and annexed the French-speaking sliver of western Switzerland. I'm considering scrapping this idea though.
Saarbrücken went to France after the defeat of Prussia by Austria and France in the 19th century and the subsequent creation of the Rhine Federation. There is historical precedence for this and keep in mind the Napoleons are still ruling the Second French Empire. I've thought about giving it to Rhine Federation, but why not let France have it as spoils of war? It's not like France hasn't ruled over German speakers before. It also creates another reason for the German states to see France as a problem.
As far as Prussia fighting Austria in order to create the German Empire, I answered that some pages back. However, I have since changed my mind on this. Prussia fighting against Austria is just not in the cards for this timeline. A player will have to do it manually or mod it in. That being said, Prussia will form the German Empire after winning WW1 with Austria as her ally. If they lose, there will probably a German Republic or Federation created.
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Even in this timeline, Prussia has special bonds with London. So there should be a possibility for Prussia to specially side with the LP in order to a) sit out war and side with CP or b) simply fight Entente AND CP with LP in order to unite all German lands, or lands, seen as 'German' ones, even Bohemia, Slovenia, Austria and Eisenstadt. And: Austrians are no own culture. They are simply Germans, called an own folk after WW2 OTL.
And to clear out one thing: The population identified itself firstly as germans, not austrians nor prussians. So there definatly ARE cores for prussia on austrian land or the other way around.
I'm 'Prussian' German. Simply believe me. There aren't great needs to forcefully 'integrate' Prussia into Austrian lead Germany or the other way round.
The conflict between Prussia and Austria was a conflict between Habsburg and Hohenzollern, no civil-war-like-tensions..
And btw. if they were able to integrate Bavaria, then Austria is definatly able integrate Prussia. (joke for germans^^)
But do not forget: Gemany never was organised like france in a centralist way. It allways has been a kind of federation with free states (Freistaaten (Sachsen, Bayern e.g.)). So even Austria could core Prussia with a special constitution (Verfassung). But DH isn't able to scetch up that detailed, so simply give the player the ability to unite ALL of Germany as Austria or Prussia.
And to clear out one thing: The population identified itself firstly as germans, not austrians nor prussians. So there definatly ARE cores for prussia on austrian land or the other way around.
I'm 'Prussian' German. Simply believe me. There aren't great needs to forcefully 'integrate' Prussia into Austrian lead Germany or the other way round.
The conflict between Prussia and Austria was a conflict between Habsburg and Hohenzollern, no civil-war-like-tensions..
And btw. if they were able to integrate Bavaria, then Austria is definatly able integrate Prussia. (joke for germans^^)
But do not forget: Gemany never was organised like france in a centralist way. It allways has been a kind of federation with free states (Freistaaten (Sachsen, Bayern e.g.)). So even Austria could core Prussia with a special constitution (Verfassung). But DH isn't able to scetch up that detailed, so simply give the player the ability to unite ALL of Germany as Austria or Prussia.
Great post. I'll consider possibly giving a Prussia player those options. However I think some of what you are saying backs up my main point, why would Prussia want to fight against Austria by 1900? I understand the Habsburg-Hohenzollern issue and that there is still the underlying concept of a German unification. However wouldn't the fact that the people consider themselves Germans before anything keep Prussia and Austria closer together and prevent them from going to war again?
I just don't see the creation of a German Empire by 1900 as being inevitable or necessary. Perhaps Prussia could have formed a smaller 'Germany' by 1900? Maybe I should rename Prussia to Germany, just they won't have some western and southern German lands. I felt that it was interesting to have Prussia around in 1900 though. Thoughts?
As far as Austria integrating Prussia I know you are joking but the idea has come up. Realistically I think the Habsburg-Hohenzollern issue is at least enough to keep that from happening. Austrian Empire is already huge--a bit larger than OTL--and I really can't imagine it happening with all the other lands and ethnic groups (Balkans) to manage. Only way I could see it happen is if the Austrian Empire was actually weaker and the Hungarians broke away etc which is not part of this mod at all. What do you think?
Anyways, it seems to me not in the best interest of Prussian Germans at this point to cross their fingers and hope Britain might eventually help them form a larger German state. Even if they did so they would still have France, Russia, and a very strong Austria opposing them. Prussia might have a 'bond' as you say with Britain but by the late 19th century, beginning of the 20th would they really expect anything useful to come out of it? It seems to me the best interest of Germans under these geopolitical circumstances would be to keep the Central Powers alliance in order to fend off vengeful Russian irredentism and push France out of German speaking areas for good.
In conclusion, I think there might be a current of bias in all of us (myself included) towards OTL situations and a focus on the formation of the German Empire as a major milestone/turning point in history. It's fair to do so but the problem is it just simply has not happened in ATL. Remember that changes in the timeline begin shortly after the end of the Napoleonic wars.
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I wasn't joking about Austria integrating Prussia. It is possible. Until 1806 Vienna was even Prussian's capital (Kaiserstadt Wien). The Vienna population is even nowadays joking about, when they meet Berlins, btw.
Prussia did not consisted of one folk, the Germans. In Prussia lived a lot French protestants (Hugenotten), Polishs (in Rhinish provinces, Silesia, Westprussia, Warszawa), Silesians, Sorbishs, Lithunians, White Ruthenians, Swedishs, Danishs, Plattduitsche (Friesland) etc. Until 1918 every Prussian law was adressed at 'The folks of Prussia within Prussia'. But even these Minorities accepted Germany as a State, because they knew, that their rights were heavily protected within Prussia and that the federal State had now possibility to intervence within Prussia itself.
In my mind and even, if Prussia lost the war against Austria, there is a need for a possibility for Austria to integrate Prussia into a German state. Do you know, why the OTL and even your TL called 'Niebelungentreue' loyality between Austria and (Prussian) Germany existed? Because Austria AND Prussia and their inhabitants recognized themself as the two German States. And if they did, they are able to unite under special circumstances.
IMO if Prussia or Austria unite all German lands some kind of forced 'Ausgleich', renogitiation, between the non-German folk and the Germans should happen (if fail=civil war). Only Bohemia, Polish territory and Slovenia were integral parts of Older Greater German area. Hungarians & Slovaks, Romainions, Galicians and Ukrainians and Russians would revolt against Greater Germany or negotiate for puppet-states.
At the LP-Prussia-issue: Prussia became a great power because it waited, used tactics and never got involved into 'Volkskriege' great Nation-Wars. So Prussia SHOULD have the chance to ally with LP and sit it out.
Aaaaand... your TL is to cool to not have an aftermatch with inter-war-period and WW2^^
Prussia did not consisted of one folk, the Germans. In Prussia lived a lot French protestants (Hugenotten), Polishs (in Rhinish provinces, Silesia, Westprussia, Warszawa), Silesians, Sorbishs, Lithunians, White Ruthenians, Swedishs, Danishs, Plattduitsche (Friesland) etc. Until 1918 every Prussian law was adressed at 'The folks of Prussia within Prussia'. But even these Minorities accepted Germany as a State, because they knew, that their rights were heavily protected within Prussia and that the federal State had now possibility to intervence within Prussia itself.
In my mind and even, if Prussia lost the war against Austria, there is a need for a possibility for Austria to integrate Prussia into a German state. Do you know, why the OTL and even your TL called 'Niebelungentreue' loyality between Austria and (Prussian) Germany existed? Because Austria AND Prussia and their inhabitants recognized themself as the two German States. And if they did, they are able to unite under special circumstances.
IMO if Prussia or Austria unite all German lands some kind of forced 'Ausgleich', renogitiation, between the non-German folk and the Germans should happen (if fail=civil war). Only Bohemia, Polish territory and Slovenia were integral parts of Older Greater German area. Hungarians & Slovaks, Romainions, Galicians and Ukrainians and Russians would revolt against Greater Germany or negotiate for puppet-states.
At the LP-Prussia-issue: Prussia became a great power because it waited, used tactics and never got involved into 'Volkskriege' great Nation-Wars. So Prussia SHOULD have the chance to ally with LP and sit it out.
Aaaaand... your TL is to cool to not have an aftermatch with inter-war-period and WW2^^
If you are going to rename Prussia into something it should be "North German Confederation" or just NGC for short (which I hope is ruled by Wilhelm II).
Now if the Central Powers win the great war should it be possible that Prussia and Austria step into war with eachother to divide up the spoils of war (and Germany)? In the long run it would mean that the conquered territories would revolt and either turn against their conquerors or keep to themselves. Because I have to be honest, I want to give the Austrians a good rumble, take their German speakers and disolve the rest of their empire because this map is really in need for Willy's ordnung.
Also would you consider making a Austro-Prussian war battlescenario having 1870 year units running around?
What you're thinking in relation to the peace events by the CP against the Entente?
how much ic does ottoman have? surely they're not as weak as in OTL right?