Oct 31 patch: Iberian results and observations

[unmerged(6777)]

This thread is for posting observations and results for things you're seeing around Iberia. I'm interested in information about games where you had little or no influence on the region, as well as for games where you actively tried to help the Christians survive.

Of greatest interest:

- How long are the Iberian Catholic surviving?

- How well are the Molsem Iberian kingdoms staying together?

 

[Secret Master]

From a fresh game as Castile:

With El Cid at the helm, I can whip Leon and unite 1/3 of Iberia fairly quickly. Some luck with crusades gives me an Iberian crusade target for the Second Crusade, and I have enough piety to bleed the badboy from annexing Navarra.


When actually fighting extended wars against the Muslims, they set aside their differences and try to whack me. When left alone, they squabble amongst themselves and have little interest in going north. However, I don't yet know if that's because I'm strong enough as Castile-Leon to deflect the AI's attention, of if they just have better things to do.

Aragon benefits immensly from Catalonia pledging allegiance, making them worthwhile in the fight. With crusades activated, they seem to make attempts at a Reconquista. They don't take much land, but they are trying.

Navarra is still easy pickings for anyone who wants her, Christian or Muslim.

Tech differences can still be felt, but they are not so severe that El Cid can't lead you to victory at one-to-one odds. Its worth noting that in previous patches as Castile, I have had El Cid consistently lose battles where he enjoyed a 2/1 advantage, losing the whole army to the last man.

BTW, where did Spanish Gallacia go?

 

[Grell74]

Generally the Iberia situation seems much more balanced. Brief history of my last game (I had no involement):

1069 - Leon wars with Toledo and Zaragossa - Leon loses Zamora and Salamnca to the muslims but takes Calatrava.

1070 - Aragon takes Navarra from Navarre.

1071 - Castile DOWs Leon, takes the Leon province, thus combining all of Leon's lands under Castille (looking pretty good for Castillle).

1072 - Aragon takes Zaragossa, Castile takes Calatayud.

1073 - Crusade called against Cordoba (Cordoba had just taken out Granada). No one decalres war agianst Cordoba (game CTDs in 1079).

1074 - Castille takes Albarracain. Things are looking quite good for the Iberian Christians.

1075 - Serville DOWs Aragon (who had depleted their troops in pervious wars). Seville easily takes Jaca, Navarra, and Zargossa.

1077-78 - Aragon also loses Tarragona and Empuries.

Game CTDs

General Thoughts: While having Galica as a Duchy and Vassal of Castile is not terribly historicallly correct it does seem to improve gameplay. I think the Al-Murabits should also be given claims on all of Muslim Spain and made more powerful. Sancho king of Aragon should not be a bastard, why was this added in the Betas? Catalonia instantly becoming Aragon's vassal is again not quite historically vaild but defintely aids gameplay.

Another idea might be to give Iberia (Santiago) knighthood order events similar to the Teutonic Knights and Hospitaliars. This will assist gameplay and add historcial flavour. Now that Galica is no longer a Kingdom Castile can spare the province of Santiago.

 

[unmerged(6777)]

In general, the idea in the setup was to "pervert" history a bit to enhance the game balance, hence the change to Spanish Gallacia and other misc. adjustments. I think that it is nearly impossible to achieve a game balance while remaining 100% true to history (within the game's current rules) and this seemed to be the best solution. Glad to see that in a few test reports so far it's doing what it should be (although maybe we've tipped the scales too far in the opposite direction now?).

Sancho king of Aragon should not be a bastard, why was this added in the Betas?

I'm not sure. This was in a large body of changes made prior to the first public beta patch so I"ll have to do some digging around and see why the change was made. I'lll get back to you on this.

 

[Duuk]

Playing as Castille, I've smashed the muslims pretty good.

Some of it was good timing on an initial war (hitting Toledo when they were at war) and a lucky crusade called to give me enough prestige/piety to become papal controller and excommunicate enough people to inherit Aragon.

 

[unmerged(6777)]

Just got an answer back re Sancho being a bastard. Apparently that was a slip up...it's his father who should be a bastard. I have fixed it for the next patch.


Edit: actually , I'm still chuckling over this one as I imagine Sacho saying "Hey! It's not me who's the bastard. It's my dad!"

:rofl:

 

[unmerged(2456)]

This was in a hands-off game for 1066.

Not much happens with the north. Castile takes part of Navarra in 1073 and Aragon takes the rest in 1079. That's pretty much it.

In the south, Sevilla overruns Cordoba and essentially takes control of SW Iberia. Toledo loses a province early on to a rogue Emirate, but retakes it. Then gets into a war between Sevilla and Malcora and Malcora annexes all of Toldeo becoming the new powerhouse in the region.

And then my game CTDs.

 

[past caring]

Glad to see that in a few test reports so far it's doing what it should be (although maybe we've tipped the scales too far in the opposite direction now?).

Something I was thinking about starting a thread on myself....

Many (most?) of the threads/posts that prompted changes to the Iberian set-up complained of the Spanish Catholics getting steam-rollered in situations where the player was playing a non-Spanish state. Indeed, up until now, I think you've been asking for reports under the betas on the survivability of the Spanish when not played by the player.

But there is the danger that the kind of tinkering that would allow the Reconquista to occur on a fair number of occasions might also make playing
as Castile or Leon way too easy (alternately it might be way too hard playing as Galicia if the "fertility" changes I've seen mooted make it all the way through to the final patch).

As I'm not a coder I don't have practical suggestions for changes - all I can do is report back. But I do think it's important that we don't lose sight of the "game versus simulation" problem. CK is a game - and for me, one of its joys is the sheer number of minor counties and duchies that are potentially playable. It would be a real shame if, in order that Spain can unite, playing as Galicia becomes impossible.

When CTDs stopped my Gwynned game under 23/10 I had a quick go as Castile. I only played about 18 months before the new beta was released, but I was able to ally with Leon and Galicia and kick Islamic backside with ease from the get go.....

Just installed 31/10 - I'll play a proper game (as Castile again) and report back.

 

[unmerged(13520)]

Many (most?) of the threads/posts that prompted changes to the Iberian set-up complained of the Spanish Catholics getting steam-rollered in situations where the player was playing a non-Spanish state. Indeed, up until now, I think you've been asking for reports under the betas on the survivability of the Spanish when not played by the player.

Actually, before the betas, there were also several posts where people complained about Iberia even when playing as any of the Christian states as well (even then the player could survive, but by AI and engine exploits rather than by skill...not exactly fun nor historical).

As I'm not a coder I don't have practical suggestions for changes - all I can do is report back. But I do think it's important that we don't lose sight of the "game versus simulation" problem. CK is a game - and for me, one of its joys is the sheer number of minor counties and duchies that are potentially playable. It would be a real shame if, in order that Spain can unite, playing as Galicia becomes impossible.

It's not so much a question of Spain uniting as of the Spanish kingdoms surviving at all (unification being one of the ways in order to accomplish this), both under AI and player control.That would seem to be a bigger gameplay issue as it involves the entire area and not one faction in particular. That definitely didn't happen before, and is beginning to happen now. There's still plently of balancing left, of course, I won't deny that, but an improvement, even in the current setup, is already noticeable.

 

[ComradeOm]

Another idea might be to give Iberia (Santiago) knighthood order events similar to the Teutonic Knights and Hospitaliars. This will assist gameplay and add historcial flavour. Now that Galica is no longer a Kingdom Castile can spare the province of Santiago.

I like this idea a lot. Historically the Order of Santiago was formed in the mid 12th century to protect the road to Santiago, one of the holiest cities in Europe. Even small bands of advanced knights could make a difference. Could it be coded though as just to give these events to Iberian realms?

 

[unmerged(6777)]

I agree that we want to be very careful about tipping the scales too far in the opposite direction. For that reason, I am currently working on a set of events that will only fire for AI Spanish Catholics and will tend to lean heavily towards the unifiaction of the Catholic kingdoms; but these will be disabled if a human happens to be controlling one of the Kingdoms. I want to get the balance close to comfortable first, though, before adding anything that will help out the AI.

Edit: oh...and pseudo Kighthoods will be part of that event series. I won't give them to human players - or maybe only in very limited numbers - but I will use them to give the AI a boost.

 

[Duuk]

As of right now, I think the balance in Iberia is about right.

Before the pure virtual CTD/save ruin, I'd united most of Iberia as Castille (also with liberal use of excommunications to insure I inherited Aragon ).

However, while I was doing that, Sevilly pretty much unified southern Iberia. Though my Castille is sort of badass (4 Kingdom titles, 18 dukes as vassals), I'm terrified of Seville because they've been at peace for 10 years while I've been running down the competition. Thus, though I'm 3 times his size, he can field slightly more troops than I can. And my troops totals were if I could mobilize ALL my regiments, including the ones that have been smashed down to 50 troops.

When the war came (Seville attacked the Duchy of Badajoz), I couldn't launch a counter-invasion. I retreated a bit, gathered all my armies into 1 solid force of 9000 troops, and attacked the Sevillian main army.

Due to my putting El Cid in charge (Duke of Valencia), I managed to win the battle. It didn't leave me with much, but I could have invaded Seville. The problem with that is, had I won, I would have been so weak that any fool could have attacked and slaughtered me.

So I offered Seville a white peace, which he accepted. The Emir was 74 years old, so I was hoping his realm would break into civil war when he died. It didn't. I'm not sure the new iberian muslim "death of liege" events are working right.

Edit: PS: It made my soul so happy to have a true medieval war happen. I gathered my armies and marched out and met the enemy on the battlefield, and the winner of the battle dictated the peace. No "front", no "lines". Just two armies clashing on the field in true middle-ages historical fashion.

 

[Amadís de Gaula]

Something I was thinking about starting a thread on myself....

Many (most?) of the threads/posts that prompted changes to the Iberian set-up complained of the Spanish Catholics getting steam-rollered in situations where the player was playing a non-Spanish state. Indeed, up until now, I think you've been asking for reports under the betas on the survivability of the Spanish when not played by the player.

But there is the danger that the kind of tinkering that would allow the Reconquista to occur on a fair number of occasions might also make playing
as Castile or Leon way too easy (alternately it might be way too hard playing as Galicia if the "fertility" changes I've seen mooted make it all the way through to the final patch).

As I'm not a coder I don't have practical suggestions for changes - all I can do is report back. But I do think it's important that we don't lose sight of the "game versus simulation" problem. CK is a game - and for me, one of its joys is the sheer number of minor counties and duchies that are potentially playable. It would be a real shame if, in order that Spain can unite, playing as Galicia becomes impossible.

When CTDs stopped my Gwynned game under 23/10 I had a quick go as Castile. I only played about 18 months before the new beta was released, but I was able to ally with Leon and Galicia and kick Islamic backside with ease from the get go.....

Just installed 31/10 - I'll play a proper game (as Castile again) and report back.

The reconquista was in fact done by 1250, Granada survived mainly by bribing castille, despite the final attempt by the Benimerines.

Thx for your good work, anyway, to all of you. I

 

[Spruce]

In my game as Aragon (1066 scenario) the balance was perfect - really awesome.

Around 1100 the emirates of Badajoz and Toledo were reduced to midgets. The emirates of Sevilla and Grenada had grown in power and had become "dangerous" for the others. The others have been eaten...

Leon was eaten by Castillia. Castillia ruled the Christian nation in the left also (vassalage?).

The others have fallen.

I've seen Leon and Castillia fighting a lot at the cost of Leon. I was able to expand nicely while Castillia became huge!

But it's very nice to see that the oversees Muslims are interfering less and that both Christians and Muslims are fighting also with eachother (so Muslims fighting muslims and christians fighting Christians).

Now early 1100's Castillia, Aragon, Sevillia (muslim) and Grenada (muslim) will decide where to go,

great job

the only minor problem is see is an overload of Sancho Jiminez characters at the start of the game,

 

[Nikolai]

Played short from 1066 to ~1080 as an Italian count. Navarra got into a war with a msulim power in the beginning of 1067, lost a province, got a new one, etc. etc. etc. It was lucky, since the enemy got into a war against largest muslim power in Iberia quite fast, and slowly was conquered. Navarra fell finally in 1074. I see a lot of muslim infighting in Iberia, but no large border changes. No disintegration so far.

 

[NeilJT]

In a recent handsoff game I played Southern Spain unified under Seville, while in the north Castille and Leon didn't do much against the muslims, Navarra was lost to the Algerians, and Aragon lost a little to Castille.

Whats quite intriguing is that a book I read recently on Moorish spain suggested that this (a unification of the party kings under Seville) is probably what would have happened, had not the Amorivids or Almoravids or Almohavids or whatever their names were invaded.

 

[unmerged(35838)]

spain and portugal

I think many players desire a hands off or player controlled end to hand off to EU2 something similar to the original EU2 scenarios, especially in Iberia.
I have to give kudos to the paradox team for supporting this and all thier games so well. If anyone are heros in the PC game market they are.
What I worry is that in all the tests I have done or read about, everything happens so fast, rather than taking 100s of years to happen, in a short time we will we end up with spain and france in muslim hands, or a spain (with no portugal) that spans to jerusalem?
Maybe it is too late to hard code in but it seems that territories owed by a king who are culturally and religiously diferent to the highest leige should be very hard to control and gain value from as in EU2. A lot of rebellions (or just crap provinces) in spain would slow both advancing christians and muslims down.
I have read several of the teams ideas about "ai only" events adding to christian spain". sounds good to me as this might be a great way of balancing the iberia situation whan the player isnt around, these sound so good as it is obvious the history of iberia will be greatly differnent if a human is involved to spot those special opportunities (you all know what I am talking about"
I know my dream game is to play CK then an EU2 export but what is the point with either no spain or an Uber spain?

 

[Amadís de Gaula]

In a recent handsoff game I played Southern Spain unified under Seville, while in the north Castille and Leon didn't do much against the muslims, Navarra was lost to the Algerians, and Aragon lost a little to Castille.

Whats quite intriguing is that a book I read recently on Moorish spain suggested that this (a unification of the party kings under Seville) is probably what would have happened, had not the Amorivids or Almoravids or Almohavids or whatever their names were invaded.

IMHO that was absolutely impossible. Sevilla´s parias (yearly tribute) belonged to Castille and Castille would have never allowed that. Zaragoza Taifa was in fact somewhat strong by 1066, but due to castillian mercenaries (i.e. El Cid after his exile).

There were 3 hordes coming from north Africa: the almorávides, the almohades and the benimerines. The taifas kingdoms were next to nothing.

Pity the real situation was not represented.

 

[past caring]

Anyhow, here's how I'm getting on in my current game: Difficulty and AI Agressiveness both set to Normal.

As Castille I've had constant wars since 1066. The first, which finished off Cuenca and Zaragosa, lasted until around 1074, during which period I was able to both win against the Muslims and build province improvements more or less continuously. Toledo also came out of the other end severely bruised - reduced to one province.

A short cessation of hostilities between 1074-78 allowed me to regroup before succesive (and succesful) wars against;

Valencia - stabbed in the back whilst they were fighting Sevilla

Palermo - target of first Crusade called in 1068, taken by Castille in 1078. DOWed immediately after assasinating the encumbent Emir - which thus ended their alliance with the far too powerful Zirid*

Mallorca - stabbed in the back whilst they were fighting Sevilla

Catalonia and Aragon - who DOWed my ally, Navarre

has left me, in 1097, here (Palermo and Agrigento off map);

The only real fly in the ointment is the fact that I allied, at the outset, with England and Germany - which allowed them to take Zaragosa and Tarragona respectively during the first war. Both present real obstacles to my goal of uniting Spain......

The "fertility" stuff seems to be working fine; Sancho died without issue, despite my best efforts (three wives, two assasinations) - the guy is definitely firing blanks . Garcia met the same fate, leaving Alfonso to inherit**. And as he seems unable to sire anything but wenches, the stage is set fair for Sancho of Navarre to clear the table - without really ever having to show his hand.

No CTDs yet.

* - perhaps another argument for adjusting the alliance system? It certainly felt like an exploit to me. Maybe allow alliances to persist even upon the death of a King/Duke/Count?

** - little bit of a scripting bug here? Alfonso aquired a "bastard" son, Rodrigo - 1068-69. I got the "bastard trait" option screen ("He's no son of mine" being one of the options) a couple of years after Sancho died and I had begun to play as Alfonso. But this was in 1085 - Rodrigo was sixteen years dead at this point.

(apologies for the half-arsed AAR style of this post - maybe now I've figured out the screenie thing I'll try a proper one )

 

[unmerged(2456)]

* - perhaps another argument for adjusting the alliance system? It certainly felt like an exploit to me. Maybe allow alliances to persist even upon the death of a King/Duke/Count?

That I know can't happen and it would also not allow for the switching of alliances that so often occured.