OCD 1, SoH 0 -- aka there are some problems with Scottish names and links

[Sleight of Hand]

Okay, I know I said I wouldn't start another bug thread but... why kick the habit of a lifetime, right?

So anyway, the issue is that in scottish.txt we have a horrible mix of English and Gaelic spellings of the same names, with little or no consistency between the two. You can see a perfect example of this in 1066, with Malcolm III's two sons being named Duncan and Domnall.

Now, the problem here is that whilst Duncan is in English, Domnall is in fact the Gaelic spelling of Donald... which, confusingly, is currently a name listed under Irish culture in cultures.txt and correctly linked with Donald. So, for the link to work you'd either need to change Domnall's name to Donald, or add Domnall_Donald under Scottish culture.

The root of the problem of course is that whilst CK II's Welsh characters are named in Welsh, and Irish characters are named in Gaelic, its Scottish characters are (somewhat anachronistically) named in English. But, to confuse matters some of the characters in scottish.txt (such as the Domnall example mentioned above) are actually named in Gaelic -- not only is this needlessly confusing but it also creates problems with names not linking properly.

My suggestion would be to change all of the names in scottish.txt to their medieval Gaelic equivalents (if you need help with this just ask, as I've already done a lot of work on the subject) and re-do the Scottish section in cultures.txt by having Gaelic names instead of English -- and, importantly, making sure the links are correct. You will find that many of the names are the same as those used by Irish (as it's essentially a single Gaelic culture) but it wouldn't be too hard to have a separate Scots Gaelic set.

Failing that, write all of the names in English -- though the problem there is that not all of them would translate correctly (ie Máel-Pátraic, Máel-Sechlainn) and I don't think you should have one of the four Celtic cultures in English whilst the others have more accurate 'native' names. It doesn't look right, particularly for the 1066 - 1337 period when Anglicization north of Lothian had yet to take place.

Anyway, please let me know your thoughts on this. I know it sounds a lot of work but it really wouldn't be that difficult to correct all of the names and re-do the Scottish section; I did it myself in an hour or so and it looks a hell of a lot better.

Oh, and please make sure the Saxon provinces in Lothian become English in 1100 and stay that way. The lowlands were never Gaelic.

Thanks!

 

[Sleight of Hand]

Looking thru some of these Scottish families in the 1187 and 1337 scenarios, it's clear that things are a real mess. In some families there are Irish, Scottish, English and Norwegian characters as full siblings -- it seems totally arbitrary and is both confusing and annoying.

I'll look thru some of these families and report my findings and suggestions, but it will take time. The issue seems to be that because the Irish and Scottish cultures (and therefore families) have been randomly split between Gaelic and English, you end up having bizarre crossovers, and the shift from Norse to Scottish in the duchy of the Isles is particularly odd in places, as is the Buchan family (rulers of said province) being Irish.

As I say, I'll try to come up with some sensible suggestions but there's absolutely no way some of these family setups can be WAD. Broadly speaking all Scots were Gaelic during the middle ages, so it seems spurious to represent the Scots Gaelics with Irish culture.

 

[Calgacus]

Calgacus is one of the betas, but apparently he can't join this discussion as he hasn't bought and registered CK2. So it's down to you, gentlemen!

This should be remarkably easy for Veld to do, as in the files I uploaded every character's name is in Gaelic but with the English variant (where applicable; some don't translate well -- Gille Críst for example) in the #AKA part underneath. So, all Veld would need to do is go thru the file and swap the actual names with those listed below.

As for a name list, you could use this as a template, though you'll probably need to add links to a lot of the Irish (Gaelic) names:

	scottish = {
		graphical_culture = celticgfx
		
		color = { 0.3 0.7 0.7 }

		male_names = {
			Adam_Adam Alan_Alan Alexander_Alexander Alpin_Alpin Alwin_Alwin Andrew_Andrew
			Angus_Angus Archibald_Archibald Arthur_Arthur Christopher_Christopher Colin_Colin Constantine_Constantine
			David_David Donald_Donald Duff_Duff Duncan_Duncan Edgar_Edgar Edmund_Edmund Edward_Edward Eric_Erik Ewan_John
			Farquhar_Fearchar Fergus_Fergus Finley_Finley George_George Gilbert_Gilbert Godfrey_Godfrey
			Gospatric_Cospatric Gregory_Gregory Henry_Henry Hugh_Hugh Ingram_Enguerrand James_Jacob John_John
			Kenneth_Kenneth Lachlan_Roland Lambert_Lambert Laurence_Laurence Lewis_Louis
			Magnus_Magnus Malcolm_Malcolm Malise_Malise Matthew_Matthew Murdoch_Murdoch Neil_Nils Niall_Nils
			Patrick_Patrick Reginald_Reginald Richard_Richard Robert_Robert Roderick_Roderick Roger_Roger
			Simon_Simon Stewart_Stewart Thomas_Thomas Walter_Walter William_William
		}
		female_names = {
			Ada Agnes_Agnes Alice_Alice Annabella Aufrica Bethoc Catriona_Catherine Cecilia_Cecilia Christina_Christina
			Deirdre_Deirdre Edith_Edith Eleanor_Eleanor Elspeth Eva_Eva Flora_Flora Gruoch Helen_Helen Isabel_Elisabeth
			Janet_Joan Joan_Joan Juliana_Juliana Mabel_Mabel Margaret_Margaret Mariota Marjorie Mary_Maria Matilda_Matilda
			Maud_Matilda Mor Muriel Nichola Orabilia Ragnailt_Ragnhild
		}

		from_dynasty_prefix = "of "

		# Chance of male children being named after their paternal or maternal grandfather, or their father. Sum must not exceed 100.
		pat_grf_name_chance = 30
		mat_grf_name_chance = 15
		father_name_chance = 5
		
		# Chance of female children being named after their paternal or maternal grandmother, or their mother. Sum must not exceed 100.
		pat_grm_name_chance = 30
		mat_grm_name_chance = 15
		mother_name_chance = 10

		modifier = default_culture_modifier
	}
}

I also suggest using English translations for some of the Gaelic dynasty names. I'll compile a list of these and post them later.

Thanks for getting back to me on this by the way.

EDIT: Who is Calgacus? Have I missed something?

I was suggesting something like this:

scottish = {
		graphical_culture = celticgfx
		
		color = { 0.3 0.7 0.7 }

		male_names = {
			Adam_Adam Alan_Alain Alexander_Alexander Alpin Alwin_Alwin Andrew_Andrew Angus_Angus Archibald_Archibald Arthur_Arthur Brice_Brice Christian_Christian 
			Colban_Kolbein Colin_Nicholas Constantine_Constantine David_David Donald_Donald Dougal_Dougal Duncan_Duncan Edgar_Edgar Edward_Edward Ewan_Ewan 
			Farquhar_Ferchar Ferteth_Ferteth Fergus Findlay Gartnait Gilbert_Gilbert Gilbride_Gilbert Gilchrist_Gilchrist Godfrey_Godfrey Gregor_Gregory Harald_Harald Henry_Henry 
			Hugh_Hugh James_Jacob John_John Kenneth_Kenneth Lachlan_Lachlan Laurence_Laurence Macbeth Magnus_Magnus Malcolm_Malcolm Maldoven Maldred_Maldred Malise_Malise Malmure_Malmure Matad_Matad 
			Matthew_Matthew Maurice_Maurice Morgan_Morgan Murdoch_Murdoch Nechtan Neil_Nigel Ness Patrick_Patrick Ronald_Ragnvald Robert_Robert
			Roderick_Roderick Simon_Simon Somerled Thomas_Thomas Waldeve_Waltheof Walter_Walter William_William
		}
		female_names = {
			Ada Agnes_Agnes Alice_Alice Annabella Aufrica_Aufrica Bethoc_Beatrice Brigit_Brigit Catriona_Catherine Cecilia_Cecilia Christina_Christina Deirdre 
			Dervorgilla_Dervorgilla Devase Edin Edith Eleanor_Eleanor Elspeth_Elisabeth Euphemia_Euphemia Eva_Eva Flora_Flora Forflissa_Forflissa Galiena Gormflaith 
			Gormelia Gruoch Helen_Helen Isabel_Elisabeth Janet_Joan Joan_Joan Juliana_Juliana Kentigerna_Kentigerna Lorna Mabel Margaret_Margaret Mariota_Mariota Marjorie 
			Mary Matilda_Matilda Maud_Matilda Mor Muriel Nichola Orabilia Ragnailt Ros_Ros Sheena Sheila Shona Una_Una
		}
		from_dynasty_prefix = "de "
		prefix = yes

		modifier = default_culture_modifier
		pat_grf_name_chance = 30
		mat_grf_name_chance = 10
		father_name_chance = 20
		
		pat_grm_name_chance = 30
		mat_grm_name_chance = 10
		mother_name_chance = 20
	}

Sleight of Hand's list has strengths, but contains many names that were unused in the era or anachronistic (the Scottish habit of naming after surnames or regions is later): Indulf, Duff, Stewart, Douglas, Lambert, Christopher, and so on. Findlay should not, preferably, have an 'e' in it.

 

[Sleight of Hand]

This is the vanilla 1.08 set, which I am happy with:

	scottish = {
		graphical_culture = celticgfx
		
		color = { 0.3 0.7 0.7 }

		male_names = {
			Adam_Adam Alan_Alan Alexander_Alexander Alpin Alwin_Alwin Andrew_Andrew
			Angus_Angus Archibald_Archibald Arthur_Arthur Christopher_Christopher Colin Constantine_Constantine
			David_David Donald_Donald Douglas Duff Duncan_Duncan Edgar_Edgar Edward_Edward Ewan_Ewan
			Ferchar Fergus_Fergus Finlay Geoffrey_Godfrey Gilbert_Gilbert Giric_Gregory Godfrey_Godfrey
			Gregory_Gregory Henry_Henry Hugh_Hugh Iain_John Indulf Ingram_Enguerrand James_Jacob John_John
			Kenneth_Kenneth Lachlan_Roland Lambert_Lambert Laurence_Laurence Lewis_Louis Lulach
			Magnus_Magnus Malcolm_Malcolm Malise_Malise Matthew_Matthew Murdoch_Murdoch Niall_Nils
			Patrick_Patrick Ranald_Reginald Richard_Richard Robert_Robert Roderick_Roderick
			Simon_Simon Stewart_Stewart Thomas_Thomas Walter_Walter William_William
		}
		female_names = {
			Ada Affraic_Euphemia Agnes_Agnes Alice_Alice Annabella Aufrica_Euphemia Bethóc Bridget Catherine_Catherine Cecily_Cecilia
			Christina_Christina Deirdre_Deirdre Donada Edith_Edith Ela Eleanor_Eleanor Elspeth_Elisabeth Euna Eva_Eva Fenella_Finnguala
			Fiona Flora_Flora Gruoch Helen_Helen Isabel_Elisabeth Joan_Joan Julia_Juliana Mabel_Mabel Margaret_Margaret Mariota Marjory
			Martha_Martha Mary_Maria Maud_Matilda Mór_Mór Mòrag Muriel_Muriel Rachel_Ragnhild Ruth Shona_Joan
		}
		from_dynasty_prefix = "de "
		prefix = yes

		modifier = default_culture_modifier
		pat_grf_name_chance = 30
		mat_grf_name_chance = 15
		father_name_chance = 5
		
		pat_grm_name_chance = 30
		mat_grm_name_chance = 15
		mother_name_chance = 10
	}

Paradox wanted English names for the Scots, so I've gone thru their character file and done that here.

Indulf, Duff and Lambert are far too cool to not be included.

 

[Calgacus]

That's a very useful exercise! As many know I would prefer the Gaelic names, but since there has never been any wavering on the existing stance on the issue of Scottish names, I'd prefer consistency and a name list that actually represents people in the era.

Duff I agree is cool (though probably never an actual forename). Indulf is probably just textual corruption and not sure I see it as cool. Favourite Scottish name of this era is Gille-Talorgan, though Gos-Oswald from Tweeddale is almost as cool; but you couldn't include them in the list just because I think they are cool!

	scottish = {
		graphical_culture = celticgfx
		
		color = { 0.3 0.7 0.7 }

		male_names = {
			Adam_Adam Alan_Alan Alexander_Alexander Alpin Alwin_Alwin Andrew_Andrew
			Angus_Angus Archibald_Archibald Arthur_Arthur Christopher_Christopher Colin Constantine_Constantine
			David_David Donald_Donald Douglas Duff Duncan_Duncan Edgar_Edgar Edward_Edward Ewan_Ewan
			Ferchar Fergus_Fergus Finlay Geoffrey_Godfrey Gilbert_Gilbert Giric_Gregory Godfrey_Godfrey
			Gregory_Gregory Henry_Henry Hugh_Hugh Iain_John Indulf Ingram_Enguerrand James_Jacob John_John
			Kenneth_Kenneth Lachlan_Roland Lambert_Lambert Laurence_Laurence Lewis_Louis Lulach
			Magnus_Magnus Malcolm_Malcolm Malise_Malise Matthew_Matthew Murdoch_Murdoch Niall_Nils
			Patrick_Patrick Ranald_Reginald Richard_Richard Robert_Robert Roderick_Roderick
			Simon_Simon Stewart_Stewart Thomas_Thomas Walter_Walter William_William
		}
		female_names = {
			Ada Affraic_Euphemia Agnes_Agnes Alice_Alice Annabella Aufrica_Euphemia Bethóc Bridget Catherine_Catherine Cecily_Cecilia
			Christina_Christina Deirdre_Deirdre Donada Edith_Edith Ela Eleanor_Eleanor Elspeth_Elisabeth Euna Eva_Eva Fenella_Finnguala
			Fiona Flora_Flora Gruoch Helen_Helen Isabel_Elisabeth Joan_Joan Julia_Juliana Mabel_Mabel Margaret_Margaret Mariota Marjory
			Martha_Martha Mary_Maria Maud_Matilda Mór_Mór Mòrag Muriel_Muriel Rachel_Ragnhild Ruth Shona_Joan
		}
		from_dynasty_prefix = "de "
		prefix = yes

		modifier = default_culture_modifier
		pat_grf_name_chance = 30
		mat_grf_name_chance = 15
		father_name_chance = 5
		
		pat_grm_name_chance = 30
		mat_grm_name_chance = 15
		mother_name_chance = 10
	}

I gotta be honest, while I think it's a lot better than before, some names in it I do not like for historical reasons and it lacks many common and important names (see the list I have posted). Would you like me to formulate a list incorporating the best of both?

 

[Calgacus]

The members of House Stewart (3134) in english.txt should all be Scottish and moved over to scottish.txt: 144241, 144242, 144243, 144244, 144245, 144246, 144247, 203011, 454570, 454571, 203013, 203040 and 203541; 203027 also has the same problem: the character (Walter Stuart) is Frankish and in frankish.txt even though his brother is English (should be Scottish) and he's listed as one of the counts of Clydesdale. There's no reason to make him Frankish, and it'll also make him a foreigner to everyone else in Scotland.

All of the Stewarts should be Scottish except the founder, Alan, who is correctly Breton.

A bit late now for commenting, but Walter fitz Alan can hardly be Scottish since he only came to Scotland-south-of-the-Forth (not even Scotland as it was then thought) as an adult in the 1130s leading an army that suppressed some kind of Galwegian insurrection. He was a third son, an older son settling in Shropshire and the eldest staying in France. His relatives weren't Scottish in the slightest. It's only really from the generation of Walter II that you can really argue they could be classified as 'Scottish'.

 

[Sleight of Hand]

Duff and Indulf (to use those specific examples) were both kings of Scots in the century preceding the start of CK II, so hardly way out of context. They're just Anglicizations of Gaelic spellings, which is what we've been told to do with Scottish names. So, in that respect, I can't see the problem.

If you take issue with character fixes then by all means report them in separate posts. I don't claim to be an expert in this area, I was just trying to get rid of the horrible inconsistency of having random Gaelic and English names. We know that the Scots during this period would have used Gaelic spellings, and largely spoke Scots Gaelic, but Paradox want English names so I just wanted to make sure everything was as consistent as possible. Not only does it look tidier, but it's less confusing for the player and it means names will link properly.

 

[Calgacus]

Duff and Indulf (to use those specific examples) were both kings of Scots in the century preceding the start of CK II, so hardly way out of context. They're just Anglicizations of Gaelic spellings, which is what we've been told to do with Scottish names. So, in that respect, I can't see the problem.

It has been suggested that Dub/Duff is a nickname rather than a forename ... it means 'dark' or 'black haired'. The idea is that the 'real' name has been lost (c/f Pictish king Dub-Talorg). Indulf is thought to be an Anglo-Norman era textual corruption (Scottish kings lists tend to survive only in 13th century + compilations done in English monasteries where the scribes had little clue what they were copying)... it doesn't mean anything and was never used in Scotland as a name. Contemporary forms vary enormously, occurring as Ildulb, Aillulb, and so on; the second element is definitely Germanic "ulf" (i.e. "wolf"), it has been suggested it is Gaelicization of continental name 'Hildulf' or of English "Eadwulf".

FYI, I am a doctoral student who's been working on this part of the world in early CK era for a number of years now, so don't be shocked if I appear to have insanely nerdy knowledge of this kind of topic.

If you take issue with character fixes then by all means report them in separate posts. I don't claim to be an expert in this area, I was just trying to get rid of the horrible inconsistency of having random Gaelic and English names. We know that the Scots during this period would have used Gaelic spellings, and largely spoke Scots Gaelic, but Paradox want English names so I just wanted to make sure everything was as consistent as possible. Not only does it look tidier, but it's less confusing for the player and it means names will link properly.

Well, I agree with you and I like that you've made it consistent! NO complaints here.

 

[Sleight of Hand]

It has been suggested that Dub/Duff is a nickname rather than a forename ... it means 'dark' or 'black haired'. The idea is that the 'real' name has been lost (c/f Pictish king Dub-Talorg). Indulf is thought to be an Anglo-Norman era textual corruption (Scottish kings lists tend to survive only in 13th century + compilations done in English monasteries where the scribes had little clue what they were copying)... it doesn't mean anything and was never used in Scotland as a name. Contemporary forms vary enormously, occurring as Ildulb, Aillulb, and so on; the second element is definitely Germanic "ulf" (i.e. "wolf"), it has been suggested it is Gaelicization of continental name 'Hildulf' or of English "Eadwulf".

You're certainly more of an expert than I am, then.

I will let you handle any more of these Gaelic issues (unfortunately I only have Wikipedia and a couple of other sources; nothing particularly concrete) as you seem to be better-informed. What are your thoughts on the Welsh? I see that some new characters have been added in 1.08, but I'm not sure who as I wasn't really well-versed in their pre-1.08 setup. They seem very easy to steamroll at present, whereas historically Wales was always a very hard place to conquer, and in particular to keep hold of. I thought it may be worth researching, and if possible giving them another couple of baronies -- that way we can add more ruling dynasties but without having to add more actual provinces, which Paradox won't do. It would also make them stronger, as would adding a few buildings.

Let me know your thoughts, though we should probably take this discussion elsewhere. In fact, given that this thread focuses on Gaelic names (which aren't being used) it could probably be locked.

It was good to (finally) hear from you, anyway. Your expertise shall no doubt come in useful.

 

[Calgacus]

You're certainly more of an expert than I am, then.

I will let you handle any more of these Gaelic issues (unfortunately I only have Wikipedia and a couple of other sources; nothing particularly concrete) as you seem to be better-informed. What are your thoughts on the Welsh? I see that some new characters have been added in 1.08, but I'm not sure who as I wasn't really well-versed in their pre-1.08 setup. They seem very easy to steamroll at present, whereas historically Wales was always a very hard place to conquer, and in particular to keep hold of. I thought it may be worth researching, and if possible giving them another couple of baronies -- that way we can add more ruling dynasties but without having to add more actual provinces, which Paradox won't do. It would also make them stronger, as would adding a few buildings.

Let me know your thoughts, though we should probably take this discussion elsewhere. In fact, given that this thread focuses on Gaelic names (which aren't being used) it could probably be locked.

It was good to (finally) hear from you, anyway. Your expertise shall no doubt come in useful.

I'll post an updated name list and give you an opportunity to comment.

I believe the latest Welsh addition were in large part back-filling the pre-CK era rulers of Gwynedd.

Wales suffers from the problem suffered elsewhere on the map, perhaps most of all by the Baltic pagans. The game has realistically stressed a kin-centred model for some aspects of medieval political life, but still uses the 'total war' and rapid political change of Victoria/EU III era. Players want quick and easy conquests of weak opponents that make the game satisfying for them; by contrast, such conquests were not possible with the resources and technologies of most people in the era. Few rulers had the right or resources to take any army of any size out of their land for any length of time, and those that did as likely as not would not be able to do so and survive (either the enemy would get them or their own people would be so annoyed they'd find a replacement); conquering castles would not mean the natives would become chastened, leaderless slaves who would let you roam about their country collecting taxes. And so on. I don't think you could make Wales much harder to conquer except by having more provinces, coding the English king to protect the native rulers whilst making him reluctant to conquer them.

 

[Sleight of Hand]

Wales suffers from the problem suffered elsewhere on the map, perhaps most of all by the Baltic pagans. The game has realistically stressed a kin-centred model for some aspects of medieval political life, but still uses the 'total war' and rapid political change of Victoria/EU III era. Players want quick and easy conquests of weak opponents that make the game satisfying for them; by contrast, such conquests were not possible with the resources and technologies of most people in the era. Few rulers had the right or resources to take any army of any size out of their land for any length of time, and those that did as likely as not would not be able to do so and survive (either the enemy would get them or their own people would be so annoyed they'd find a replacement); conquering castles would not mean the natives would become chastened, leaderless slaves who would let you roam about their country collecting taxes. And so on. I don't think you could make Wales much harder to conquer except by having more provinces, coding the English king to protect the native rulers whilst making him reluctant to conquer them.

I can't disagree with a word of that, and if you can think of a good and plausible way to improve/change this then I'd love to hear it.

 

[Calgacus]

Here we go:

	scottish = {
		graphical_culture = celticgfx
		
		color = { 0.3 0.7 0.7 }

		male_names = {
			Adam_Adam Alan_Alan Alexander_Alexander Alpin Alwin_Alwin Andrew_Andrew
			Angus_Angus Archibald_Archibald Arthur_Arthur Aulay_Olaf Brice_Brice Colban_Kolbein 
			Colin_Nicholas Constantine_Constantine David_David Donald_Donald Dugald 
			Duncan_Duncan Edgar_Edgar Edward_Edward Ewan_Ewan Farquhar Fergus_Fergus Findlay 
			Gartnait Gilbert_Gilbert Gilbride_Gilbert Gilchrist_Gilchrist Gilcolm_Gilcolm Gilmichael Gilmure 
		 	Giric_Gregory Godfrey_Godfrey Gregor_Gregory Harald_Harald Hector Henry_Henry Hugh_Hugh 
			James_Jacob John_John Kenneth_Kenneth Lachlan_Roland Laurence_Laurence 
			Macbeth Magnus_Magnus Malbride_Brice Malcolm_Malcolm Maldoven Maldred_Maldred Malise_Malise Malmure_Malmure 
			Matad_Matad Matthew_Matthew Morgan Murdoch_Murdoch Nechtan Neil_Nigel
			Ness Patrick_Patrick Radulf_Ralph Ranald_Reginald Richard_Richard Robert_Robert Ruairi_Roderick
			Simon_Simon Thomas_Thomas Uhtred Waldeve_Waltheof Walter_Walter William_William
		}
		female_names = {
			Ada Affraic_Euphemia Agnes_Agnes Alice_Alice Annabella Aufrica_Euphemia Bethoc_Beatrice Bride_Brigid 
			Catriona_Catherine Cecilia_Cecilia Christina_Christina Deirdre_Deirdre Dervorgilla_Dervorgilla Donada 
			Edith_Edith Eithne Ela Eleanor_Eleanor Elspeth_Elisabeth Euna Eva_Eva Fenella_Finnguala  Flora_Flora 
			Forflissa Galiena Gormelia_Gormflaith Gruoch Helen_Helen Isabel_Elisabeth Joan_Joan Julia_Juliana 
			Kentigerna Lorna Malmure_Malmure Margaret_Margaret Mariota_Mariota Marjory_Marjory 
			Martha_Martha Marthoc_Marjory Mary_Maria Maud_Matilda Mirren_Murron Mor_Mor Morag_Mor Muriel_Muriel
			Murron_Murron Nuala Orabilia Ros Sheena Shona_Joan
		}
		from_dynasty_prefix = "de "
		prefix = yes


		modifier = default_culture_modifier
		pat_grf_name_chance = 30
		mat_grf_name_chance = 10
		father_name_chance = 20
		
		pat_grm_name_chance = 30
		mat_grm_name_chance = 10
		mother_name_chance = 20
	}

Changes to other culture groups for cognates:
Add/replace to Irish << Derborgaill_Dervorgilla (delete the Dervorgilla there), Gilla-Coluim_Gilcolm, Gilla-Críst_Gilchrist, Máel-Muire_Malmure (female), Máel-Doraid_Maldred, Máiread_Mariota (female), Morgann_Morgan, Mór_Mor (female), Muirenn_Murron (female) >>
Add/replace to Welsh << Madog_Matad, Morgan_Morgan >>
Add/replace to Norwegian << Kolbein_Kolbein >>
Add/replace in Saxon <<Maldræd_Maldred, Wealtheof with Waltheof_Waltheof>>

 

[Sleight of Hand]

You have a double __ in there.

Some interesting additions.

 

[Calgacus]

Thanks, I've corrected that now. Are you ok with it?

 

[Sleight of Hand]

Thanks, I've corrected that now. Are you ok with it?

Sure, I'm all for a more historical setup.

Some links are missing, though.

There's an Irish name Dúngal, is that the same as Dugald? Also, I see you've removed Douglas. Is it not appropriate?

Your _Harald link wants to be _Harold, and there is actually a Saxon name Maldræd, which I assume would need a _Maldred link now?

Morgan is also a Welsh name, so they could be linked with _Morgan.

The other variants of Neil/Niall link with _Nils. I'm not sure why the Irish version alone links with _Nigel. That's an error.

I think Roderick is a better choice, given that Ruaidrí is a Gaelic name. We should try to be consistent.

Also, this will require you go thru scottish.txt and change a number of names.

 

[Calgacus]

There's an Irish name Dúngal, is that the same as Dugald?

It's a different name. The form anglicized is of 'Dubgall' ("new foreigner").
But I thought Dugald was the name you chose to render Dubgall, no? That's how the game files spell it anyway. I was going to go with Dougal, but on second thoughts I thought Dugald was better (harmony with Donald and Ranald).

Also, I see you've removed Douglas. Is it not appropriate?

Indeed, Douglas is not a forename in this era, but a river in Clydedsdale.

Your _Harald link wants to be _Harold,

Morgan is also a Welsh name, so they could be linked with _Morgan.

Indeed, cheers.

The other variants of Neil/Niall link with _Nils. I'm not sure why the Irish version alone links with _Nigel. That's an error.

Niall and Nils aren't related I don't believe (though I'm no Scandinavianist, Nils is allegedly Nicholas and so would be related to Colin rather than Neil); Nigel is the way writers of the era translate the name 'Niall' in England and France.

I think Roderick is a better choice, given that Ruaidrí is a Gaelic name. We should try to be consistent.

Ruairi is not Gaelic, but an Anglicization of Ruaidhri (it tends to be anglicized as something like Ruairi in Scotland but Rory in Ireland, just as Domhnall is Donald in Scotland and Donall in Ireland). Roderick is a bit obscure and not very Scottish... but it's no big deal.

there is actually a Saxon name Maldræd, which I assume would need a _Maldred link now?

Will add that, though Maldræd is not how the name occurs in earliest English usage (early-to-mid 11th century), but is a reanalysis. The English should be Maldorth or something similar.

Sure, I'm all for a more historical setup.

Cheers again!