OCD 1, SoH 0 -- aka there are some problems with Scottish names and links

[Sleight of Hand]

Okay, I know I said I wouldn't start another bug thread but... why kick the habit of a lifetime, right?

So anyway, the issue is that in scottish.txt we have a horrible mix of English and Gaelic spellings of the same names, with little or no consistency between the two. You can see a perfect example of this in 1066, with Malcolm III's two sons being named Duncan and Domnall.

Now, the problem here is that whilst Duncan is in English, Domnall is in fact the Gaelic spelling of Donald... which, confusingly, is currently a name listed under Irish culture in cultures.txt and correctly linked with Donald. So, for the link to work you'd either need to change Domnall's name to Donald, or add Domnall_Donald under Scottish culture.

The root of the problem of course is that whilst CK II's Welsh characters are named in Welsh, and Irish characters are named in Gaelic, its Scottish characters are (somewhat anachronistically) named in English. But, to confuse matters some of the characters in scottish.txt (such as the Domnall example mentioned above) are actually named in Gaelic -- not only is this needlessly confusing but it also creates problems with names not linking properly.

My suggestion would be to change all of the names in scottish.txt to their medieval Gaelic equivalents (if you need help with this just ask, as I've already done a lot of work on the subject) and re-do the Scottish section in cultures.txt by having Gaelic names instead of English -- and, importantly, making sure the links are correct. You will find that many of the names are the same as those used by Irish (as it's essentially a single Gaelic culture) but it wouldn't be too hard to have a separate Scots Gaelic set.

Failing that, write all of the names in English -- though the problem there is that not all of them would translate correctly (ie Máel-Pátraic, Máel-Sechlainn) and I don't think you should have one of the four Celtic cultures in English whilst the others have more accurate 'native' names. It doesn't look right, particularly for the 1066 - 1337 period when Anglicization north of Lothian had yet to take place.

Anyway, please let me know your thoughts on this. I know it sounds a lot of work but it really wouldn't be that difficult to correct all of the names and re-do the Scottish section; I did it myself in an hour or so and it looks a hell of a lot better.

Oh, and please make sure the Saxon provinces in Lothian become English in 1100 and stay that way. The lowlands were never Gaelic.

Thanks!

 

[Sleight of Hand]

I'm going to bump this for the devs to see, as I think it's important.

 

[Goosecreature]

I've talked this over with King and Doomdark, and the only change we're willing to accept in this matter is to write all the Scottish names in English for the sake of consistency. So no Gaelic...

If you're still willing to do this, I'll need an updated scottish.txt with all the necessary name changes, as well as the updated names for the Scottish section of the cultures file. Since you don't have access to the latest beta files, you can't do this yourself. Veldmaarschalk, do you think you could help him with this?

 

[Goosecreature]

Calgacus, you wanted several changes as well to various names in the British and Irish cultures. In light of this, I suggest you guys discuss the changes you want made here (keeping in mind that we'll be using English names for the Scots), and when you've reached an agreement, Veldmaarschalk can post a single bug report with the changes and I'll see about getting them added to the game ASAP. Does this sound good?

 

[Veldmaarschalk]

Veldmaarschalk, do you think you could help him with this?

No problem.

 

[Sleight of Hand]

This should be remarkably easy for Veld to do, as in the files I uploaded every character's name is in Gaelic but with the English variant (where applicable; some don't translate well -- Gille Críst for example) in the #AKA part underneath. So, all Veld would need to do is go thru the file and swap the actual names with those listed below.

As for a name list, you could use this as a template, though you'll probably need to add links to a lot of the Irish (Gaelic) names:

	scottish = {
		graphical_culture = celticgfx
		
		color = { 0.3 0.7 0.7 }

		male_names = {
			Adam_Adam Alan_Alan Alexander_Alexander Alpin_Alpin Alwin_Alwin Andrew_Andrew
			Angus_Angus Archibald_Archibald Arthur_Arthur Christopher_Christopher Colin_Colin Constantine_Constantine
			David_David Donald_Donald Duff_Duff Duncan_Duncan Edgar_Edgar Edmund_Edmund Edward_Edward Eric_Erik Ewan_John
			Farquhar_Fearchar Fergus_Fergus Finley_Finley George_George Gilbert_Gilbert Godfrey_Godfrey
			Gospatric_Cospatric Gregory_Gregory Henry_Henry Hugh_Hugh Ingram_Enguerrand James_Jacob John_John
			Kenneth_Kenneth Lachlan_Roland Lambert_Lambert Laurence_Laurence Lewis_Louis
			Magnus_Magnus Malcolm_Malcolm Malise_Malise Matthew_Matthew Murdoch_Murdoch Neil_Nils Niall_Nils
			Patrick_Patrick Reginald_Reginald Richard_Richard Robert_Robert Roderick_Roderick Roger_Roger
			Simon_Simon Stewart_Stewart Thomas_Thomas Walter_Walter William_William
		}
		female_names = {
			Ada Agnes_Agnes Alice_Alice Annabella Aufrica Bethoc Catriona_Catherine Cecilia_Cecilia Christina_Christina
			Deirdre_Deirdre Edith_Edith Eleanor_Eleanor Elspeth Eva_Eva Flora_Flora Gruoch Helen_Helen Isabel_Elisabeth
			Janet_Joan Joan_Joan Juliana_Juliana Mabel_Mabel Margaret_Margaret Mariota Marjorie Mary_Maria Matilda_Matilda
			Maud_Matilda Mor Muriel Nichola Orabilia Ragnailt_Ragnhild
		}

		from_dynasty_prefix = "of "

		# Chance of male children being named after their paternal or maternal grandfather, or their father. Sum must not exceed 100.
		pat_grf_name_chance = 30
		mat_grf_name_chance = 15
		father_name_chance = 5
		
		# Chance of female children being named after their paternal or maternal grandmother, or their mother. Sum must not exceed 100.
		pat_grm_name_chance = 30
		mat_grm_name_chance = 15
		mother_name_chance = 10

		modifier = default_culture_modifier
	}
}

I also suggest using English translations for some of the Gaelic dynasty names. I'll compile a list of these and post them later.

Thanks for getting back to me on this by the way.

EDIT: Who is Calgacus? Have I missed something?

 

[Goosecreature]

Calgacus is one of the betas, but apparently he can't join this discussion as he hasn't bought and registered CK2. So it's down to you, gentlemen!

 

[Sleight of Hand]

Calgacus is one of the betas, but apparently he can't join this discussion as he hasn't bought and registered CK2. So it's down to you, gentlemen!

PM me scottish.txt and I will do it for you.

 

[Sian]

i'd link Elspeth to Elizabeth as well

 

[Veldmaarschalk]

PM me scottish.txt and I will do it for you.

But you don't you already have the scottish.txt ?

 

[Sleight of Hand]

But you don't you already have the scottish.txt ?

Not the version from the beta, no.

 

[Veldmaarschalk]

I don't think much has changed with that file.

I already updated most of them

 

[Sleight of Hand]

Veld, just a brief comment on Henry I's queen:

202995 = {
	name="[COLOR="#FF8C00"]Edith[/COLOR]"
	# AKA: [COLOR="#FF8C00"]Matilda[/COLOR]
	female = yes
	dynasty=1687
	martial=8
	diplomacy=5
	intrigue=5
	stewardship=7
	religion="catholic"
	culture="scottish"
	father=984
	mother=113
	1079.1.1={
		birth="1079.1.1"
	}
	[COLOR="#FF8C00"]1100.11.11 = {
		name="Matilda"
	}[/COLOR]
	1118.1.2={
		death="1118.1.2"
	}
}

This is the version of the character from the file you uploaded above. She was born Edith but took the Norman name Matilda upon her marriage to King Henry, so I think (like with David Soslan) this is the best way to represent that.

 

[Sleight of Hand]

Okay, here's the new Scottish stuff as requested, complete with English names. There are a few Gaelic leftovers (not all names have direct translations) but they're in a minority and will tend to disappear fairly quickly. I've also fixed a couple of characters and added a missing one.

453054 = {  	
	name="[COLOR="#FF8C00"]Fiona[/COLOR]"
	# AKA: [COLOR="#FF8C00"]Fionnaghal Og[/COLOR]
	female = yes
	dynasty=25046
	martial=6
	diplomacy=4
	intrigue=4
	stewardship=5
	religion="catholic"
	culture="scottish"
	add_trait="lustful"
	add_trait="amateurish_plotter"
	father=453055
	1316.1.1={
		birth="1316.1.1"
	}
	1366.1.1={
		death="1366.1.1"
	}
}

Her name was Mary before, but Wikipedia says that it was in fact Fiona who was married William III of Ross and another sister, Mary, married a John Stewart, though I'm not sure which one. Anyway, I've added her here, and at the bottom of the file:

202996 = {  	
	name="Mary"
	# AKA: Máire Og
	female = yes
	dynasty=25046
	martial=4
	diplomacy=5
	intrigue=9
	stewardship=7
	religion="catholic"
	culture="scottish"
	add_trait="cynical"
	add_trait="intricate_webweaver"
	father=453055
	1314.1.1={
		birth="1314.1.1"
	}
	1373.1.1={
		death="1373.1.1"
	}
}

That's the only new character, though I did add the 'bastard' trait to her younger half-brother Iain Og:

453056 = {  	
	name="Iain"
	# AKA: Iain Og
	dynasty=25046
	martial=5
	diplomacy=5
	intrigue=5
	stewardship=7
	religion="catholic"
	culture="scottish"
	[COLOR="#FF8C00"]add_trait="bastard"[/COLOR]
	add_trait="tough_soldier"
	father=453055
	1329.1.1={
		birth="1329.1.1"
	}
	1379.1.1={
		death="1379.1.1"
	}
}

A couple of another anomalies:

220029 = {
	name="Ragnhild"
	female = yes
	dynasty=25046
	martial=6
	diplomacy=6
	intrigue=8
	stewardship=8
	religion="catholic"
	culture="norwegian"
	add_trait="thrifty_clerk"
	father=220019
	mother=220028
	1174.1.1={
		birth="1174.1.1"
	}
	1224.1.1={
		death="1224.1.1"
	}
}

This character is in norwegian.txt and has Norwegian culture, even though her parents and siblings are all Scottish.

7397 = {  	
	name="Thomas"
	# AKA: Tomás
	[COLOR="#FF8C00"]dynasty=3146[/COLOR]
	religion="catholic"
	culture="scottish"
	father=453058
	mother=453059
	1308.1.1={
		birth="1308.1.1"
	}
	1332.8.11={
		death="1332.8.11"
	}
}

This character was missing his dynasty, so I added it. He's a count and a legitimate member of that family, so I assume it's an error.

The members of House Stewart (3134) in english.txt should all be Scottish and moved over to scottish.txt: 144241, 144242, 144243, 144244, 144245, 144246, 144247, 203011, 454570, 454571, 203013, 203040 and 203541; 203027 also has the same problem: the character (Walter Stuart) is Frankish and in frankish.txt even though his brother is English (should be Scottish) and he's listed as one of the counts of Clydesdale. There's no reason to make him Frankish, and it'll also make him a foreigner to everyone else in Scotland.

All of the Stewarts should be Scottish except the founder, Alan, who is correctly Breton.

Finally, I've noticed that 453068 and 453069 are both English and in english.txt despite being the daughters of a Scot (453010) and members of a Scottish dynasty. Maybe this is intentional, but I can't see why it would be.

And the names of course:

	scottish = {
		graphical_culture = celticgfx
		
		color = { 0.3 0.7 0.7 }

		male_names = {
			Adam_Adam Alan_Alan Alexander_Alexander Alpin Alwin_Alwin Andrew_Andrew
			Angus_Angus Archibald_Archibald Arthur_Arthur Christopher_Christopher Colin Constantine_Constantine
			David_David Donald_Donald Douglas Duff Duncan_Duncan Edgar_Edgar Edward_Edward Ewan_Ewan
			Ferchar Fergus_Fergus Finlay Geoffrey_Godfrey Gilbert_Gilbert Giric_Gregory Godfrey_Godfrey
			Gregory_Gregory Henry_Henry Hugh_Hugh Iain_John Indulf Ingram_Enguerrand James_Jacob John_John
			Kenneth_Kenneth Lachlan_Roland Lambert_Lambert Laurence_Laurence Lewis_Louis Lulach
			Magnus_Magnus Malcolm_Malcolm Malise_Malise Matthew_Matthew Murdoch_Murdoch Niall_Nils
			Patrick_Patrick Ranald_Reginald Richard_Richard Robert_Robert Roderick_Roderick
			Simon_Simon Stewart_Stewart Thomas_Thomas Walter_Walter William_William
		}
		female_names = {
			Ada Affraic_Euphemia Agnes_Agnes Alice_Alice Annabella Aufrica_Euphemia Bethóc Bridget Catherine_Catherine Cecily_Cecilia
			Christina_Christina Deirdre_Deirdre Donada Edith_Edith Ela Eleanor_Eleanor Elspeth_Elisabeth Euna Eva_Eva Fenella_Finnguala
			Fiona Flora_Flora Gruoch Helen_Helen Isabel_Elisabeth Joan_Joan Julia_Juliana Mabel_Mabel Margaret_Margaret Mariota Marjory
			Martha_Martha Mary_Maria Maud_Matilda Mór_Mór Mòrag Muriel_Muriel Rachel_Ragnhild Ruth Shona_Joan
		}

		from_dynasty_prefix = "of "

		# Chance of male children being named after their paternal or maternal grandfather, or their father. Sum must not exceed 100.
		pat_grf_name_chance = 30
		mat_grf_name_chance = 15
		father_name_chance = 5
		
		# Chance of female children being named after their paternal or maternal grandmother, or their mother. Sum must not exceed 100.
		pat_grm_name_chance = 30
		mat_grm_name_chance = 15
		mother_name_chance = 10

		modifier = default_culture_modifier
	}

 

[Sleight of Hand]

I'm going to bump this because it took me ages and it might get missed on page two. I'd appreciate it if someone could confirm that it's been forwarded.

 

[Veldmaarschalk]

There really is no need to bump threads, I am not that old and I can still remember the things that I am working on

 

[Sleight of Hand]

It's not ageism, just persistence.

 

[Veldmaarschalk]

All has been reported

 

[Sleight of Hand]

Thanks a lot. Looking forward to seeing them in 1.07

You could rename the Norwegian character I mentioned above (220029) to Rachel, as it's linked with Ragnhild in the name list I provided.

 

[Veldmaarschalk]

Did that.