Occupied France / Vichy France - why were there two?

[Gordy]

I've never really understood this.

The biggest part of France including Paris was in Occupied France and rules, as I understand it, directly by the Germans whereas Vichy France, made up of South Eastern France, was released as a vassal.

But why? I know that Vichy France was in the most socially conservative region of France where you would expect right-wing authoritarian Nazi collaborators to come from (obviously not everyone I am sure that there was also resistance going on) and obviously it is well away from sensitive areas where the British / US might bomb or attack.

But what was the long-term plan for France?

Would Vichy France expand to include Occupied France if Germany had won the war?
Did the German plan to keep France partitioned?

I presume that they had no lebensraum ideas for France.

 

[bz249]

I've never really understood this.

The biggest part of France including Paris was in Occupied France and rules, as I understand it, directly by the Germans whereas Vichy France, made up of South Eastern France, was released as a vassal.

But why? I know that Vichy France was in the most socially conservative region of France where you would expect right-wing authoritarian Nazi collaborators to come from (obviously not everyone I am sure that there was also resistance going on) and obviously it is well away from sensitive areas where the British / US might bomb or attack.

But what was the long-term plan for France?

Would Vichy France expand to include Occupied France if Germany had won the war?
Did the German plan to keep France partitioned?

I presume that they had no lebensraum ideas for France.

Of course they had... there was Alsace to start with, the there was a next level to be colonized by Germans (actually created) and
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3c/FranceOccupee.jpg

furthermore and finally there was also a hipothetic Burgundian state.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SS_State_of_Burgundy

But as with all of those long term plans of the Nazis it was vague to say the least.

 

[Gordy]

Thanks Gents. But am I right that Vichy France existed because it was socially conservative by nature and far away from Britain.

Why wasn't all France (aside from A-L) "Occupied France"? Why allow any of it the pretence of being free?

 

[JodelDiplom]

The Germans wanted to have full control over the coastal areas as well as their complete hinterland in the form of Northern France, for mainly military strategic reasons. They were still at war with Britain so naturally those areas were strategically useful - air bases, naval bases, and the railroads to supply them. Southern France was not strategic at that time, since the western med was not a very important war zone yet.

Southern France was fully occupied once the allied threat in the western med had become more urgent (due to allied invasion of North Africa)

 

[viale]

Perhaps there were also some diplomatic considerations regarding Vichy France. It is less of a cock-blocking move towards Mussolini and his Mediterranean ambitions to create a puppet state, than to directly "annexing" it yourself. In this way he still believes than a new Roman Italian state can be created.

Not that this is meant to contradict anything else said so far, just another point to consider.

 

[pithorr]

It was very smart by the Germans. They didn't need to keep so much garrison forces in France, but the "free zone" was constantly blackmailed by the threat of the ultimate annexation, so and had to obbey all German orders without hestitation. They should have done the same in Ukraine and maybe they would win that war...

 

[JodelDiplom]

It was very smart by the Germans. They didn't need to keep so much garrison forces in France, but the "free zone" was constantly blackmailed by the threat of the ultimate annexation, so and had to obbey all German orders without hestitation. They should have done the same in Ukraine and maybe they would win that war...

Well it worked in WW1 so yeah maybe.

But in WW2 that would be asking too much self restraint from Nazis... Too many jews in Ukraine, too much Lebensraum, too many greedy Nazi officials all wanting a piece of the pie for their projects. Too many military railways straight through the Ukraine that the Wehrmacht wanted to / needed to control directly. And of course too much contempt against the Ukrainians to let them run their own state smack in the middle of all that booty that uncle Hermann and uncle Heinrich promised to their underlings

 

[Geriander]

Complete occupation may have caused more of the navy and colonial troops to continue resisting?

 

[Kazanov]

It was very smart by the Germans. They didn't need to keep so much garrison forces in France, but the "free zone" was constantly blackmailed by the threat of the ultimate annexation, so and had to obbey all German orders without hestitation. They should have done the same in Ukraine and maybe they would win that war...

Maybe they could have prolonged the war, but they lost it at the very moment they invaded the soviets.

 

[bz249]

Maybe they could have prolonged the war, but they lost it at the very moment they invaded the soviets.

They invaded the Soviets, because they lost the war.

 

[ShotgunSpam55555]

I expect the Germans had in their mind to lessen the immense logistical problems of occupying such a large chunk of land in Europe as they did.

 

[pithorr]

I expect the Germans had in their mind to lessen the immense logistical problems of occupying such a large chunk of land in Europe as they did.

But why didn't they just share France with Duce?
Geriander's point could be most valid - they wanted to neutralize French forces remaining in overseas territories.

 

[ShotgunSpam55555]

But why didn't they just share France with Duce?
Geriander's point could be most valid - they wanted to neutralize French forces remaining in overseas territories.

I guess that makes sense, creating a 'French Anchor ' that all the colonies see, rather than an entirely red German one; thus neutralizing a large chunk of possible opposition in the form of colonial armies. It also provides a base for pro-Nazi French like Petain. The question is, were Vichy France a puppet of Germany,or a willing collaboration?

 

[Kovax]

The question is, were Vichy France a puppet of Germany,or a willing collaboration?

It looks to me like It was a mostly-willing collaborator, but had to walk a rather fine line, as it could be turned into a puppet on short notice if Germany felt the need.

 

[DystopianAlphaOmega]

Basically, as others have said, the war was still going on. France would have a weak, but friendly government which would help ensure the French didn't fight on and that France would be in no position to contest eventual dictated peace terms. It also allowed Germany to occupy the Atlantic Coast and its naval/air bases, important for defending against and waging war against Britain (be it on air, land, or sea). As for Italy, well, part of the impetus for France to accept surrender terms was to avoid losing more territory.

 

[Narwhal]

If Franceis annexed directly, then you can assume that the French Fleet passes in British hands, you can assume that all the colonies (which bring a significant manpower plus some interesting strategic locations) will be still fighting - and you can’t punish them because you have a French fleet in the Med. in addition to the British, you can expect to allocate large troops in garrison duty, you can expect significant resistance, including economic resistance.

Or you can take directly the interesting and industrial part of France, give a trinket to your puppet and neutralize this way all the colonies and the French fleet.

Generally the French fleet was the one asset that Vichy could have leveraged - and did not.

 

[Andre Bolkonsky]

Maybe they could have prolonged the war, but they lost it at the very moment they invaded the soviets.

Their primary objective in crossing the border was to topple the Communist regime and establish a German state in Russia. To do this, SD performed the Greatest Deception in History that placed Germany Army Groups North, Center and South on Russia's border without detection.

As has been said by individuals far more educated about logistical tonnage than myself, it was a six week gamble that ended when Zhukov unleashed his barrage of Siberian snowballs.

Within a matter of days of the German collapse in front of Moscow, the Nazis shifted to Plan B in January of '42. The state came under control of the SS totally, and Immigration To The East gave way to Evacuation. And money, a huge amount of money, was hidden in clever places. And, unfortunately, they were very successful and lived to fight another day.

In other words, Adolph Hitler was not playing the same game the rest of us were playing. They retreated, they were never beaten. It is the Thousand Year Reich they were building, not the Decade Reich.

No? Just ask Walter Rauff and the individuals north of you in (what was once the slave camp at) Colonia Dignidad.

 

[bz249]

If French is annexed directly, then you can assume that the French Fleet passes in British hands, you can assume that all the colonies (which bring a significant manpower plus some interesting strategic locations) will be still fighting - and you can’t punish them because you have a French fleet in the Med. in addition to the British, you can expect to allocate large troops in garrison duty, you can expect significant resistance, including economic resistance.

Or you can take directly the interesting and industrial part of France, give a trinket to your puppet and neutralize this way all the colonies and the French fleet.

Generally the French fleet was the one asset that Vichy could have leveraged - and did not.

Well after Oran the French Fleet lost most of its importance, which was that as a fleet in being they draw important RN assets. This was anyway the best fit for French naval traditions.

 

[Narwhal]

Well after Oran the French Fleet lost most of its importance, which was that as a fleet in being they draw important RN assets. This was anyway the best fit for French naval traditions.

Well, the French Fleet was blunted but not destroyed. It lost two BB (Bretagne sunk, Dunkerque out of commission for the war) out of iirc 7 total + 1 being built at the beginning of the war. So yes, 25% of the fleet.

 

[Andre Bolkonsky]

Well, the French Fleet was blunted but not destroyed. It lost two BB (Bretagne sunk, Dunkerque out of commission for the war) out of iirc 7 total + 1 being built at the beginning of the war. So yes, 25% of the fleet.

Don’t forget about CV Béarn sitting in Martinique with the French gold reserve and its escort fleet.